Linuxin tulevaisuus
Tietokone-lehden ict-paneelissa keskustellaan tällä kertaa Linuxista ja sen tulevaisuudesta. Keskustelua riittää niin lisensseistä kuin Linuxin yleistymisestä kotikoneiden käyttöjärjestelmänä. Keskustelua käyvät Tietokoneen toimituspäällikkö Kari Haakana, Fujitsu Servicesin järjestelmäarkkitehti Tuomas Levoniemi, Novell Finlandin maajohtaja Kim Aaltonen ja Tietokone-lehden avustaja Ossi Mäntylahti.
Kuuntele keskustelu tästä (mp3, 33 Mt)
17. tammikuuta 2007 kello 17.37
Linux on monella tapaa windowsia edellä, mutta kotikäytössä sitä vastaan ovat nimen omaan erilaisten tiedostojen osittainen toimimattomuus. Itse aloin käyttämään linuxia vasta hetki sitten, mutta heti alusta alkaen olen pitänyt selkeästä käyttöliittymästä, ja huomattavasti Windowsia paremmasta käyttömukavuudesta ajatellen esimerkiksi pakettienhallintaa, ja tiettyjä ohjelmia, ja niiden avaamista helpottavia sovelluksia kuten katapulttia. Sen lisäksi linuxin asentamiseen menee todennäköisesti vähemmän aikaa kuin windowsin, sillä windowsille _kaikki_ oikeista web-selaimista lähtien täytyy asentaa erikseen.
Linux voisi olla myös julkisen puolen päätteissä kuten kirjastoissa ja kouluissa erittäin hyvä käyttöjärjestelmä, sillä koulujen rahatilanne on huono, ja siksi joissain asioissa kuten tässä olisi helppo säästää. Mitä tulee kernel-hakkerin kaapissa pitämiseen, niin siinä ei kouluissa etua saa windowsiin nähden sillä monet ala-asteiden oppilaat saavat hajoitettua käyttöjärjestelmän erittäin helposti, oli se sitten windows eli linux. Samoin kirjastopäätteillä, joiden varsinainen tarkoitus on webin selaus, linux olisi oiva käyttöjärjestelmä oikeasti hyvien selainten kuten operan tai firefoxin kanssa, ainakin verrattuna monien kirjastojen IE 4:ään. Linuxilla saa helposti tehtyä myös suurimman osan toimstotarpeista, mutta tällä puolella tietysti ongelmana on mahdollisten tarvittavien ohjelmistojen heikko saatavuus linuxille.
18. tammikuuta 2007 kello 1.17
Suurin este GNU/Linux järjestelmien suuremman skaalan adoptointiin kuluttajien keskuudessa on yhä kunnollisten standardien puute. Erityisesti binäärisen rajapinnan hajanaisuus vaikeuttaa, koska eri distroissa (distroille) käännetyt ohjelmat on joskus vaikea laittaa toimimaan toisissa distroissa.
Kuluttajat haluavat, että ohjelmia voi ostaa kaupan hyllystä. He myös haluavat, että ohjelmat asentuvat ikonia klikkaamalla, tai automaattisesti kun asennusmedian liittää tietokoneeseen.
Näitä vaatimuksia ei voi nykypäivän distroilla toteuttaa kunnolla. Osittain tätä asiaa vaikeuttaa GNU:ta (ja siis GPL:ää) puoltavien yhteisöjen nuiva suhtautuminen kaupallisiin tarjoajiin. Joskus tuntuu, että vapaiden ohjelmistokomponenttien rajapinnat tahallaan rikotaan binäärisellä tasolla tietyin väliajoin, että voitaisiin estää kaupallisten ohjelmistojen pääsy GNU/Linux markkinoille.
Itsellä on ollut suunnitelman alla eräänlainen suljettu käännösympäristö, jossa on tarkka versionhallinta, ja ajoympäristö, joka mahdollistaa ohjelmien asentamisen ja ajamisen normaalikäyttäjän oikeuksilla. Avainteknologioita on mm FUSE (filesystems in userspace) ja LSB:n käännöstyökalut.
Saapa nähdä, minkälaisia kompromisseja saadaan aikaseksi …
18. tammikuuta 2007 kello 2.01
Että sellasta. Totta on että kaupallinen Linux on pitkän matkan päässä. Valhetta on moni asia keskustelusta, huolimatta siitä että mukana oli “puolueettomia” keskustelijoita. MacOSX hakkaa mennen tullen Windowsin ja Linuxin, Linux puolestaan hakkaa osaavissa käsissä Windowsin. Windowsilla on tulevaisuus niinkauan kun OEM toimii Microsoftin hyväksi, eli ei enää kovinkaan kauaa. Aivan sama mitä nk. “asiantuntijat” sanovat, totuus ei tullut tässä keskustelussa ilmi, jokainen asioista kiinnostunut voi ottaa googlella selvää…
18. tammikuuta 2007 kello 9.30
Just just: Eikös osaavissa käsissä mikä tahansa käyttöjärjestelmä hakkaa minkä tahansa muun käyttöjärjestelmän? Sitten jos puhutaan osaamattomista käsistä, niin MacOSX kuulemma on oikeen veikeä järjestelmä – ei tarvitse osata käyttää tietokonetta, mutta kuitenkin siitäkin osaamisesta on tarvittaessa hyötyä, sillä alla oleva BSD-variantti antaa tehdä asioita tehokkaasti komentoriviltä.
Kuitenkaan Linux-distronkaan käyttö ei vaadi mitään suurtekoja nykypäivänä. Itse ostin Mandrivan uusimman 2007 version ja se on oikein nätti, helppokäyttöinen ja toimiva. En ole säätänyt vielä mielestäni yhtään (taustakuvaa ja paria pikakuvaketta lukuunottamatta) ja silti tämä on oikein miellyttävä 3d-työpöytineen. Työnteko ja harrastukset ovat kaikki onnistuneet ilman tarvetta googlauksille tai kaverikyselyille. Tämä vertauksena kaverin tyttöystävän jouluna saamalle macille, joka verkkoyhteyttä jakaessa alkoikin jakaa dhcp:tä ulkoverkkoon päin – bugi/ominaisuus joka on ollut kauan tiedossa mutta joka on ollut vähäpätöinen valmistajan silmissä koska dsl-käyttäjät-/operaattori eivät sellaisesta ole moksiskaan.
19. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.01
Nyt jopa ehdin kuunnella tuon castin. Kaksi ensimmäistä olivat oikein asiallisia ja mielenkiintoisia, mutta tämänkertainen oli jokseenkin sekava ja kaoottinen.
Eniten tosiaan häiritsi tämän yhden windows-evangelistan hassut kysymykset, joista läheskään kaikki eivät oikeastaan kuuluneet asiaan. Kuulosti siltä, että hän oli kolme vuotta sitten kokeillut linuxia ja alkuinnostuksen murtaman itkuisen säädön jälkeen huomannut että väärältä foorumilta kyseleminen tuottaa vääriä vastauksia ja dvd:n katsominen on hankalaa ja isojen poikien mielestä jopa laitonta. Hänen mielestään ei myöskään olisi mitenkään ihmeellistä esim. kysellä windows asioita Mac-foorumilla. Hänhän ärhäkkäästi halusi että foorumeille pitää pystyä menemään kyselemään asioita linuxista ilman että vastauksena tulee distro-kohtaista kettuilua.
Outoa myös, ettei tietoturvasta, viruksista tai yleensä haavoittuvuuksista ollut puhetta. Linuxin vahvuus juuri näissä alueissa pelkästään takaa sille paljon käyttäjäpohjaa. Tietysti bisnesmielessä tämäkin on hankalaa, sillä tietoturvayhtiöt saavat linux-puolelta vähemmän rahaa ja yrityksille uhat ovat niin kauan teoreettisia kunnes ne toteutuvat.
19. tammikuuta 2007 kello 18.11
“mutta heti alusta alkaen olen pitänyt selkeästä käyttöliittymästä, ja huomattavasti Windowsia paremmasta käyttömukavuudesta ajatellen esimerkiksi pakettienhallintaa, ja tiettyjä ohjelmia, ja niiden avaamista helpottavia sovelluksia kuten katapulttia.”
Varmaankin puhut nyt KDE:stä kun katapulttia käytät? Linuxin käyttöliittymästä puhuttaessa kannattaa muistaa että on useita erilaisia käyttöliittymiä saatavilla.
Kuuntelin jutun junassa ja pitää sanoa että erittäin paljon alkoi naurattamaan tuo DVD kysymys, ei ollut tosiaan windows käyttäjä tietoinen kaupallisista DVD soittimista, jos windows puolella käyttää WinDVD:tä mikä tulee useiden soittimien mukana, voi linuxin puolella käyttää LinDVD:tä joka on samalta valmistajalta, laillista on kanssa täysin.
Myös nauratti maininta pakettihallinnasta ja kun verrattiin sitä aah, niin ihanaan windows updateen mikä ei ole edes vertauskelvollinen. Sama kuin vertaisi bussia ja henkilöautoa kun tulee kyseeseen mahdollisimman suuren määrän ihmisiä kuljettaminen paikasta toiseen.
Ja aikaisemminhan tuo libdvdcss oli laillinen mutta uuden tekijäjänoikeuslain myötä siitä tuli laiton mutta jos on kerran jo maksanut purkulisenssistä jonkin ohjelman mukana, mielestäni saisi vapaasti tällöin moista käyttää.
Paljon asioita jäi tuosta sanomatta ja mieleen jäi enemmänkin tuollainen pikkupoikien vertailu kenellä on paras äiti. Enemmän ehkä syynä oli windows käyttäjien kokemukset vuosien takaiseen toimintaan tai vastaavaa.
Ihan mielenkiintoinen juttu mutta olisi voinut nyt odottaa vähän parempaa tietämystä windows puolelta että kuinka nopeasti oikeasti kyseinen alusta kehittyy, siinä missä esim XP > Vista ero on pieni 5 vuoden aikana niin esim KDE:n puolella moinen ero voi tulla vuodessa tai jopa puolessa. Puhumattakaan ohjelmien kehittymisestä joka on verrattavissa melkein ihmisten palautteen antamiseen.
20. tammikuuta 2007 kello 1.01
No niin, jos tahdotte julistaa minut windows evankelistaksi niin siitä vain.
Todellinen ongelma tehokotikäyttäjällä linuxilla on tietynlaisten ohjelmien saamattomuus linuxille. Esim kehittyneelle ass tekstitys standartille ei ole renderöijää linuxille. Lisäksi monet ilmaiset tekstitykseen liityvät ohjelmat eivät tue ollenkaan linuxia. Lisäksi videon editoimiseen liittyvät ilmaiset ohjelmat eivät lion tue Linuxia. Myös monet web ympäristöön sijoittuvat ohjelmat kuten laskutusreskontrat ovat toteutettu IE-only perjaatteella, joten pk yritykselle muodustuu linuxin kanssa ongelmia tulostaa päivittäiset laskunsa jne.
Nyt palataa 15v taaksepäin:
Ah ihana komentolinjainen dossini pyöri uunituoreessa konessani. Sittemmin Windows on kehittynyt helppokäyttöiseen guihin, joka on suuri edistys komentolinjaisuuteen juuri helppokäyttöisyydessä. Jos joku alkaa kieltää tämän, niin ajatelkaas usempia noviiseja ja antakaas niiden oma-aloitteisesti asentaa jokin ohjelma linuxille tai windowsille. Kumpikohan vie helppokäyttöisyydessä 10pts? Nyt ymmärrän että linux evankelistat ärähtävät ja kumpi on parempi? Kyllä helppokäyttöisyys nimeen omaan ratkaisee kumpi (gui vai komento) ovat parempia. Aivan turha väite on kuinka vähän windows on kehittynyt. Nimeen omaan Windows on kehittynyt paljon Linuxia helppokäyttöisemmäksi vuosien varrella. IE tosin on toinen asia, joka jatkuvasti laahaa web standartien tuissa. Linux kokemukseni ovat kotikäytössä hyvinki tämän mukaisia:
1. minua kiinnostaa distron ulkopuolinen ohjelma, esim ubuntu ei osaa asentaa suoraa sitä ohjelmaa. Sen asentaminen pitää hoitaa komentokehotteilla. Nyt 20 käskyä kestäneen asennuksen aikana (infot tähän sain keskutelu foorumeilta) yritin käynnistää ohjelman.
2. Ohjelma sanoo, että kernelini on lian vanha. Nyt windows käyttäjää ihmetyttää tässä mikä hitto se kernel oikeastaan on edes. Taas foorumille lukemaan ja löytyhän sielt 40 kehotetta sisältävä kernelin uudelleen kompiloiminen -ohjeet.
3. Alan sitten kompiloimaan kerneliä uudestaan ja jossain meni vikaan ja ubuntu asentaa alkuperäisen kernelin uudestaan ja reboottaa.
4. Sitten onnistun seuraavalla kerralla kompiloimisessa.
5. Ohjelma valittaa nyt että ei tunnista kerneliä yhteensopivaksi.
6. uudelleen foorumeille jossa on ohjelman 20 käskyä sisaltävä ohjelman updateus uusimmalle ubuntun kernerille tjsp.
7. katon kelloa kun aloin hommaan 12:00 kello on nyt 2:00 meen nukkumaan suihkun kautta kun oli niin hikinen ohjelman asennus urakka.
Vertaan windows:
1. Sama ohjelma lataus.
2. Asennus
3. Käyttö.
4.Aloin 12:00 ja katsoessani kelloa se on 12:07
Tässä syytä mikä pelottaa tavallista käyttäjää vaihtamaan linuxiin.
Olen paneelin kanssa siinä samaa mieltä ett verkkohommat toimii linuxilla ihan hyvin ja samaten musiikin kuuntelu jne. Tehokäyttö ja varsinkin jos opiskelee koodauskieliä kuten visual basic ovat todellisia ongelmia linuxin käytössä. Lisäksi se että tietyt ohjelmat ja palvelut netissä vaativat IE ilmneisesti active-x komponenttien takia. Linuxissa on hieno distron updatetus systeemi joka hakkaa windows updaten mennen tulle, mutta entäs distron ulkopuoliset ohjelmat ja niiden asennus…?
Edelleen voin todeta: Windowsissa toimii moitteettomasti lähes jokainen opensource ohjelma sekä windows ohjelma. Linuxissa pitännee keksiä hienoja kikkoja 3 osapuolen sovelluksien kera että vois edes koklaa windows ohjelmia linuxissa mutta en edes tiedä onko se laillista.
Onhan olemassa linux-only ohjelmia, mutta vielä ei ole tullut sellaista ohjelmaa vastaan, jota vastaavaa windows puolella ei ilmaiseksi saisi.
Riippumaton mielipiteeni molempien käyttöjärjestelmien käyttäjänä on:
Mun mammani osaa tehdä juttuja windowsin installereilla ja sen guilla, mut linuxin komennoilla ei. Linuxin erilaiset guit helpottavat mutta eivät poista ongelmaa. Windows on siis helpompi, käyttäjäystävällisempi.
20. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.35
Erityisen ärsyttävä kommentti oli “Linux on ilmainen, jos aika on ilmaista. En usko että kenenkään aika on ilmaista”. Toinen oli “Onhan olemassa linux-only ohjelmia, mutta vielä ei ole tullut sellaista ohjelmaa vastaan, jota vastaavaa windows puolella ei ilmaiseksi saisi.”
Linux on vapaa, joka on ilmaiseksi saatavilla. Osoittaa minusta näköalattomuutta tuollaiset kommentit. Otitpa ihan minkä tahansa OS:n, niin sen pyörittäminen maksaa rahaa sähkön, laitteistojen, tilojen tms. muodossa.
Mutta se ilmaisuus tuleekin aivan muista asioista. Minulle lähimpänä on järjestelmän resurssien käytön laajentaminen “ilmaiseksi” tai vapaasti ilman erilliskustannuksia, jos vaikkapa jonkin tuontantojärjestelmän käyttäjäkapasiteettia lisättäisiin sadasta tuhanteen. Ei tarvitse miettiä esimerkiksi prosesorien lisäämisestä aiheutuvia lisenssikustannuksia tms. muuta end user licence agreement -juttuja.
En ole kuullut kenenkään väittävän että esimerkiksi Windows olisi halpa etenkin pitkässä juoksussa, joten kukahan argumentoisi sitä?
“1. minua kiinnostaa distron ulkopuolinen ohjelma, esim ubuntu ei osaa asentaa suoraa sitä ohjelmaa. Sen asentaminen pitää hoitaa komentokehotteilla. Nyt 20 käskyä kestäneen asennuksen aikana (infot tähän sain keskutelu foorumeilta) yritin käynnistää ohjelman.”
Ei tarvitse komentokehoitetta.
“Mun mammani osaa tehdä juttuja windowsin installereilla ja sen guilla, mut linuxin komennoilla ei.”
Minusta tuntuu että ihmeissään olisi mammasi, jos ylipäätään pitäisi alkaa asentamaan ohjelmia ja etsimään niitä vaikkapa verkosta – olipa mikä järjestelmä tahansa. Mitenkäs se sun mammasi suhtautuu siihen, että hänellä olisi 10 000 ohjelman kirjasto yhden hiiren kliksautuksen takana? Ei taida ihan Windowsissa olla moista ominaisuutta? Tai mitäs se sun mammasi Windowsia asennellessaan joutuu kaikkea säätämään, pitää asennella melkoinen liuta ohjelmistoja eikä siltikään systeemi ole yhtä turvallinen kuin keskiverto Linux-jakelu.
“Nimeen omaan Windows on kehittynyt paljon Linuxia helppokäyttöisemmäksi vuosien varrella.”
Höpö höpö – puhtaasti mielikuvakysymys, joka johtuu esimerkiksi siitä että, verovaroin ylläpidetään järjestelmää jossa koulutetaan yhtiölle X valmiiksi asiakkaita ja järjestelmän Z kohdalla on todennäköisesti laajempi käyttöhistoria. Ihmekös tuo jos olet siinä mielikuvassa.
20. tammikuuta 2007 kello 21.05
“Kuluttajat haluavat, että ohjelmia voi ostaa kaupan hyllystä. He myös haluavat, että ohjelmat asentuvat ikonia klikkaamalla, tai automaattisesti kun asennusmedian liittää tietokoneeseen.”
Minä en halua ostaa ohjelmia kaupan hyllystä. Lataan ne mielummin netistä/pakettienhallinan kautta. En halua käyttää asennusmediaa, käytän mielummin pakettienhallintaa.
“Näitä vaatimuksia ei voi nykypäivän distroilla toteuttaa kunnolla.”
Ainakin Ubuntussa ja openSUSEssa nuo vaatimukset täyttyy. Ubuntussa näin: Käynnistetään Synaptic. Valitaan ohjelma(t) jotka halutaan poistaa/asentaa ja painetaan “Toteuta” nappia.
“Todellinen ongelma tehokotikäyttäjällä linuxilla on tietynlaisten ohjelmien saamattomuus linuxille. Esim kehittyneelle ass tekstitys standartille ei ole renderöijää linuxille. Lisäksi monet ilmaiset tekstitykseen liityvät ohjelmat eivät tue ollenkaan linuxia.”
Vaikka ohjelma on ilmainen, ei se välttämättä ole avointa koodia, ja silloin jos sitä ei saa Linnuxille, ei vika ole Linuxin vaan ohjelman kehittäjien.
“Lisäksi videon editoimiseen liittyvät ilmaiset ohjelmat eivät lion tue Linuxia.”
Olet varmaankin kokeillut Kinoa?
“Myös monet web ympäristöön sijoittuvat ohjelmat kuten laskutusreskontrat ovat toteutettu IE-only perjaatteella, joten pk yritykselle muodustuu linuxin kanssa ongelmia tulostaa päivittäiset laskunsa jne.”
IE:n saa winen kautta toimimaan Linuxissa.
“Jos joku alkaa kieltää tämän, niin ajatelkaas usempia noviiseja ja antakaas niiden oma-aloitteisesti asentaa jokin ohjelma linuxille tai windowsille. Kumpikohan vie helppokäyttöisyydessä 10pts?”
Linux.
“Kyllä helppokäyttöisyys nimeen omaan ratkaisee kumpi (gui vai komento) ovat parempia.”
Windowsissa on vain GUI, esim Ubuntussa on GUI ja komento.
“minua kiinnostaa distron ulkopuolinen ohjelma”
Mikäs ohjelma?
“distron ulkopuoliset ohjelmat ja niiden asennus…?” Kuukausi sitten Ubuntun pakettivarastoissa oli vähän yli 20 000 pakettia. Kyllä siellä on kaikkea mahdollista.
“Edelleen voin todeta: Windowsissa toimii moitteettomasti lähes jokainen opensource ohjelma sekä windows ohjelma. Linuxissa pitännee keksiä hienoja kikkoja 3 osapuolen sovelluksien kera että vois edes koklaa windows ohjelmia linuxissa mutta en edes tiedä onko se laillista.”
Windowssissa toimii lähes jokainen opensource ohjelma sekä windows ohjelma. Linuxissa toimii myös lähes kaikki opensource ohjelmat sekä Linux ohjelmat. Ja kyllä on laillista käyttää wineä windows ohjelmien pyörittämiseksi jos sinulla on Windowsin lisenssi maksettu.
21. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.46
Nimimerkki “Jeroi” ei sitten enempää hakuteillä voisi olla. “Ilmainen” ei tarkoita automaattisesti “vapaata”. Etkö ymmärrä, että vaikka käyttämäsi Windows-ohjelma olisikin ilmainen, ei se silti ole välttämättä avointa koodia ja käyttöjärjestelmä alla on myös kaupallinen, suljettu järjestelmä. Se, jos jotain kaupallisia ohjelmia ei ole julkaistu Linuxille, johtuu niistä ohjelmien tekijöistä, valita sinne. Itse en halua kaupallisia ohjelmia Linuxille, koska miksi haluaisin sotkea oikeasti avoimen järjestelmän suljetulla koodilla?
Se, että yritit kääntää jotain kerneliä Ubuntussa, riittää jo kuvaamaan osaamisesi tasoa. En ole yli viiteen vuoteen kääntänyt kerneliä yhdessäkään modernissa distrossa, enkä ole sen puoleen viiteen vuoteen asennellut softaa lähdekoodeista. Aina on löytynyt ohjelmalähde netistä, joka on lisätty paketinhallintaan. Ja paketinhallita on helpompi, turvallisempi ja varmempi tapa asentaa softaa, kuin hakea viruksella saastunut tiedosto kolmannen osapuolen sivulta, joka ylikirjoittaa jokin tärkeän DLL-tiedoston ja rikkoo järjestelmän.
Ohjelmointiin Linux on varmaankin paras ympäristö, mitä saatavilla yleensä on. IDE:jä ja kieliä on kymmenittäin, jopa sadoittain – kaikki ilmaiseksi ja avoimena. Älä nyt hyvä mies mitään Visual Basiciä edes opettele! Sillä ei ole ohjelmoinnin kanssa mitään tekemistä. Vai haluatko lukittua Microsoftin järjestelmiin loppuiäksesi?
“Riippumattomasta mielipiteestä” sinulla ei ole tietoakaan. Olet käyttänyt ilmeisesti Windowsia koko elämäsi ja yrität tehdä asiat samalla tavalla Linuxissa. Tämä ei tule onnistumaan. Itse tiedän taas ihan kokemuksesta, että peruskäyttäjälle Linux tulee helpommaksi ihan puhtaasti virusten/spywaren puuttumisen takia ja koska ohjelmat eivät pääse rikkomaan toisiaan paketinhallinnan ansiosta. Jos kuvittelet, että peruskäyttäjät osaavat huolehtia virustutkasta, levyn eheytyksestä, adwaren poistosta ja muusta sonnasta, olet väärässä. Jos näin olisi, miksi sitten saan joka viikko putsata kymmenittäin Windows-koneita siitä samasta roskasta, eikä mikään oppi tunnu menevän perille. Ainoa tapa päästä niistä eroon näyttää olevan Linuxin asentaminen koneelle tai käyttäjän vaihtaminen Mäkkiin. Windows on VAIKEAKÄYTTÖINEN tavalliselle kotikäyttäjälle. Kaikista helpoin vaihtoehto on tietenkin se Mäkki, mutta Linuxin ja Windowsin keskinäisessä vertailussa Windows häviää. Lue hyvä artikkeli osoitteesta:
Linux EI ole Windows
http://webd.savonia-amk.fi/www/kt22440/LNW/linux_eioo_windows.html
“Windows on luotu “ei-teknisille” käyttäjille Näiden käyttäjien keskuudessa vallitsee varsin yleinen ennakkoluulo, että Linux on vaikeakäyttöinen. Tämä ei pidä paikkaansa, mutta on varsin ymmärrettävä väärinkäsitys.
“Linux on itseasiassa autuaan helppokäyttöinen. Oikeastaan se on erittäin helppokäyttöinen. Syy siihen, ettei sitä yleensä nähdä näin? Koska termiä “helppokäyttöisyys” on vääristelty niin pahasti. Normaalikäytössä “helppokäyttöinen” tarkoittaa nykyään “helppo tehdä jotain, ilman että etukäteen tietää miten se tehdään”. Mutta sehän ei oikeastaan ole “helppo käyttää”, eikö totta? Se on “helppo tajuta”.”
21. tammikuuta 2007 kello 12.03
["Aivan turha väite on kuinka vähän windows on kehittynyt."]
Väärin, kuten suunnilleen jokainen muukin väite kommentissasi. IE:n saa Linuxille helpolla asennuksella, Kaikki Windows-ohjelmat toimivat esim. virtualisoinnin kautta helposti Linuxissa (ei komentorivisäätöjä). Pysy erossa Visual Basic:stä, jos koskaan haluat oppia ihan oikeasti koodausta. VB opettaa tapoja, joista on hankala päästä enää koskaan eroon ja lukitut siihen vuosikausiksi.
Mutta palatakseni alkuun… Windows ei ole kehittynyt lainkaan lähes 7 vuoteen. Niin kauan on siitä kun Windows 2000 ilmestyi. XP ei tuonut mitään uutta, mutta W2K oli pieni parannus NT4:ään. 9x-pohjaisia Windowseja on aivan turha edes mainita, ne nyt olivat sanoinkuvaamatonta kuraa. Sen sijaan Windowsin GUI ei ole kehittynyt lainkaan n. 12 vuoteen. Windows 95:n GUI oli kopio vanhasta Mac OS:ista, mutta paljon kankeampana ja hankalampana. Sama GUI on edelleen XP:ssä, vaikka Mac OS X, KDE, GNOME ja monet muut ovat ottaneet valtavia harppauksia joka vuosi. Nyt M$ yrittää kopioida Vistaan OS X:n GUI:ta. Eikö maailman suurimmassa ohjelmistotalossa parempaan pystytä? Ei mitään omia innovaatioita, ainoastaan kopiointia. Windowsin Explorer on kankea, hidas ja jälkeenjäänyt GUI, jota ei ole miellyttävä käyttää, ei ole koskaan ollutkaan. Lisäksi allamakaava järjestelmä on purkkakoodia, joka edelleen (XP), vielä vuonna 2007, jättää zombi-prosesseille täydet CPU-ajat ja reilusti muistia, pakottaen käynnistämään koko koneen uudestaan. Tämä se vasta on kivikautta. Unix osasi napata tehot pois zombeilta jo varmaan 60-luvulla.
DOS-vertaukset Unixin komentoriviin osoittaa suunnatonta tietämättömyyttä. Ei ole mitään tehokkaampaa tapaa käyttää konetta, kuin Unix-konsoli. Käytän todella paljon konsolikomentoja myös Mac-puolella. Sitten kun pitäisi käyttää Windowsia asiakkaalla, hommat menevät vaikeaksi – komentorivi on kankea, komentoja on vähän, eikä sen kautta oikeasti voi hallita koko konetta. Windowsin komentorivi on juuri se DOS-tyylinen, kehittymätön ja hankala, mutta oikea bash-shelli on tehokäyttäjän unelma. Mikään GUI ei sitä hakkaa, ei OS X, ei KDE, ei GNOME, eikä varsinkaan Windowsin Explorer, joka on juuttunut johonkin 90-luvulle vanhana Mac OS-kopiona.
21. tammikuuta 2007 kello 12.38
Jeroi, kannattaisiko ne ohelmat valita alustariippumattomuuden mukaan. Taloushallinto-ohjelmistoksi vaikka Netbaron, toimii kaikilla alustoilla ja selaimilla. Vaikka toimiston ulkopuoleltakin etänä. Jos valitsee Windows/IE-only softaa, saa syyttää ainoastaan itseään. Eihän Mäkkiohjelmatkaan toimi Windowsissa, miksi Windows-ohjelmien pitäisi toimia Linuxissa?? Fiksun miehen tunnistaa yleensä siitä, että vaikka tietämystä ei välttämättä kauheasti löytyisikään, hän jättää nämä VB-, DOS- ja “ilmaisohjelma”-jutut kirjoittamatta. “Ilmaisohjelmilla” ei ole mitään tekemistä “vapaiden ohjelmien” kanssa, eikä “free software” ole _koskaan_ tarkoittanut “ilmaisohjelmia”.
http://www.gnu.org
Tässä sitten tosielämän asennusesimerkki eräästä kolmannen osapuolen softasta:
Windows:
Ohjelma haettiin Googlen kautta jostain web-sivulta. Se kyllä asentui, mutta ei käynnistynyt. Jokin DLL-tiedosto puuttui, joten siis sitä metsästämään. Noh, tämän jälkeen tarvittiin vielä pari muutakin DLL-tiedostoa. Kun ohjelma sitten viimein saatiin käyntiin, huomattiin sen korvanneen joitakin muita DLL:iä järjestelmästä (nämä siis olivat tulleet ohjelman mukana) ja rikkoneen monien muiden ohjelmien toiminnan. Tämän jälkeen huomattiin ohjelman sisältävän vielä spywarea ja adwarea. Niitä sitten poistelemaan. Kun kaikki oli lopulta saatu korjattua, aikaa oli mennyt n. 5 tuntia.
Mac OS X:
Ohjelma haettiin Googlella ja raahattiin asennuskuvasta Applications-hakemistoon. Aikaa meni pari minuuttia.
Mandriva 2007:
Paketinhallinnasta valittiin ohjelma asennettavaksi. Riippuvuudet asentuivat automaattisesti, eivätkä rikkoneet muiden ohjelmien asennuksia. Viruksia ei tarvitse pelätä keskitetyiltä palvelimilta asentaessa. Aikaa meni pari minuuttia.
Esimerkki 2, Mandriva 2007:
Ohjelma haettiin Googlella .package-paketissa ja tupla-klikattiin sitä Konquerissa. Aikaa meni pari minuuttia.
Esimerkki 3, SuSE 10.1:
Ohjelma käynnistettiin Klik-muodossa web-sivulta, jolloin sitä ei edes tarvitse asentaa. Aikaa meni alle minuutti.
Paketinhallinta ei pelkästään helpota ohjelma-asennuksia, vaan myös suojelee järjestelmän eheyttä. Ohjelmat eivät pääse korvaamaan toisiaan, eikä paketeissa voi tulla viruksia kun ne asennetaan suojatuilta ja keskitetyiltä palvelimilta. Näin ei ole Windows-puolella.
Jos sinua muuten oikeasti kiinnostaa tietokoneen tehokäyttö, on parempi alkaa opetella niitä UNIX:in komentoja. En ole kuullut vielä kenenkään aiemmin sanovan, että “Linux on tehokäytössä ongelma”, sillä juuri tuo UNIX-pohjaisuus tekee siitä äärettömän tehokkaan. Pelkästään tiedostonhallintaoperaatioissa Windows-käyttäjä jää auttamattomasti jälkeen nopeudessa, kun pistetään GUI ja CLI vastakkain. Linux/UNIX on nimenomaan tehokäyttäjille ja siinä se loistaa. Sinun tapauksessasi vika näyttää olevan siellä tuolin ja näppäimistön välissä. Rakensin esimerkiksi viime viikolla lähdekoodeista juuri omalle koneelleni optimoidun järjestelmän, joka myös käynnistyy täysin CD:ltä tai verkosta. Koitapa tehdä sama suljetun koodin Windowsilla.
Ja samat komennot toimivat hyvin pitkälti joka UNIX-järjestelmässä. Lisäksi myös monet GUI:t (kuten esim. KDE) ovat käytössä usealla eri UNIX-alustalla. Eli kertaalleen opittu auttaa todella paljon kymmenien eri järjestelmien kanssa. Sen sijaan Windows ei opeta sinulle yhtään mitään. Kun aloitat käyttämään mitä tahansa muuta järjestelmää joudut opettelemaan kaiken alusta.
21. tammikuuta 2007 kello 13.43
Lainaus Jeroilta:
“Esim kehittyneelle ass tekstitys standartille ei ole renderöijää linuxille”
Mitäköhän varten mulla sitten on tässä Linuxissa tuki niin ass tekstityksen luonnille kuin toistamisellekin, joka kaiken lisäksi toimii vielä ihan hyvin?
Itse asiassa MPlayerinssä ( http://www.mplayerhq.hu/design7/info.html#docs ) on tuettuna .aqt, .ASS, .js, .jss, .rt, .smi, .srt, .ssa, .sub, .txt, .utf ja .vobsub tekstitysmuodot.
Lisäksi tossa on linkki helppokäyttöiseen GUI:hin, jolla niitä tekstityksiä voi sitten itse luoda http://kitone.free.fr/subtitleeditor/
Huomaa erityisesti:
“Supported Formats :
* Sub Station Alpha
* ADVANCED SUB STATION ALPHA
* SubRip
* MicroDVD
* MPL2
* MPsub (MPlayer subtitle)
* SubViewer 2.0
* Plain-Text”
Eli jotenkin musta tuntuu, ettet ole ottanu asiasta selvää ennen kirjoitustasi. Sen verran täytyy kyllä vielä sanoa, että Subtitle Editorin olen itse kääntäny, mutta MPlayerin saa kyllä jokaisen distron pakketinhalinnan kautta.
21. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.16
Hmmm. Tässä on taas oikein kunnon keskustelu käyttissodasta. Näitä tuntuu olevan joka ikinen foorumi väärällään
.
Itse olen käyttänyt järjestelmiä windows 9x/ME/2K ja XP, sekä kokeillut 2003 serveriä. Linuxin puolelta käyttiksiä Slax Original ja KillBill, Ubuntu Dapperia ja Xubuntua, muistaakseni myös Dapper. Edelleen vaikein asia “leirin” vaihtamisessa tuntuu olevan se, että niin monesta vanhasta asiasta joutuu oppimaan pois.
Ja edelleen Linux on oikeasti AINOA käyttis, jossa kaikki pelaa ilman MITÄÄN säätöä kun on vain järjestelmän asentanut, jos vain käyttää idioottiversioita kuten juuri Ubuntua ja sen variantteja. Onhan myös enemmän Hardcoredataajille suunniteltuja distroja, mutta minkä ihmeen vuoksi joku perusjuntti valitsee sellaisen?
Pakko myöntää että en osaa kuin peruskäytön linuxista merkkipohjaisena, käytän graafisia käyttöliittymiä. Sillä kaikki on ainakin tähän mennessä mennyt kuin vettä vaan. Windowsia käytän nykyään enää pelaamiseen, ja joskus kun pitää saada FTP-servu pystyyn äkkiä ilman, että se syö resursseja varsinaiselta käyttökoneelta.
Kun puhutaan siitä että windows on niin kumman helpopkäyttöinen, niin onhan se tavallaan. Käyttäjälle ei näy mitä kaikkea taustalla pyörii ja tapahtuu, eikä se kiinnostakaan useimpia. Se alkaa kiinnostaa vasta sitten, kun koneella on niin paljon troijalaisia ja muuta paskaa että se ei enää käynnisty.
Se Pentti Peruskäyttäjä ei edes huomaa minkään olevan vinossa ennen kun kone on todella tiltissä, koska ihmisillä on gigan keskusmuistilla ja 4 GHz:n prosessorilla olevia koneita kotona sähköpostin lukua ja musiikin kuuntelua varten. Siellä mahtuu aika paljon tavaraa tausta-ajoon ennen kuin koneen toiminta kummemmin hidastuu.
Ihmisiä vaan pelotellaan sillä, että Linux on jotain korkemman tason ydinfyssiikkaa tai henkimaailman hommia. Monet jotka niin sanovat eivät edes ole sitä koskaan kokeilleet…
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 9.36
Joo, kyllä se Linux on multimediatoistoon paras järjestelmä. MPlayer toistaa varmaan enemmän erilaisia videoformaatteja ja tekstitysmuotoja kuin mikään Windows-softa, kun on asentanut pari peruspakettia, kuten win32-codecs. Ei tarvita mitään häsläystä tuhansien codec-pakettien kanssa, kaikki vain toimii. Xine on myös todella hyvä softa.
DVD-toistoon haluan ehdottomasti käyttää aina Linuxia, se kun murtaa levyn suojauksen automaattisesti, ei piittaa aluekoodeista lainkaan, copyright-tekstit saa AINA hypittyä yli (näin ei ole DVD-soittimilla ja Windowsissa/Mäkissä).
Suosittelen tutustumaan vaikka Geexboxiin, joka ei vaadi asennusta lainkaan (käynnistyy suoraan CD:ltä). Sillä saa kätevästi koneestaan erittäin nopeasti käynnistyvän multimediakoneen:
http://www.geexbox.org
Älkää sitten sitä kakkosversiota asentako, se on vasta testausasteella. Ykkösversio on erittäin toimiva.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 10.41
Jeroi:
(”Windowsissa toimii moitteettomasti lähes jokainen opensource ohjelma sekä windows ohjelma.”)
Pieleen meni. Esim. parasta soitinohjelmaa Amarokia EI saa Windowsille, eikä myöskään KDE- tai GNOME-ympäristöjä. Ja nämä ovat vasta alkua.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.37
Mistä saan Linux-tietokoneeseeni laillisen DVD-soitto-ohjelman? (Täällä mainittu LinDVD ei tähän käy – se on sulautettu soitinteknologiaratkaisu, eikä edes vielä kaupallisesti myynnissä).
Löytyykö tuki jostain distrosta jo valmiiksi? (Siis niin, että en joudu editoimaan pakettienhallintaan ei-luotettuja puolalaisia opiskelijabokseja, jotka jakavat warepakettia).
Saako samasta lähteestä myös lailliset HD-DVD/Blueray -levyjen soitto-ohjelmat?
- Ossi
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 12.03
Vexi:
Subtitle Editorille löytyy ainakin binääri-RPM:t tuolta http://rpm.pbone.net hakusanaksi subtitleeditor.
Ossi:
Asenna vain se libdvdcss, niin DVD:t aukeavat (murtuvat) joka soitto-ohjelmassa, esim. Xine, MPlayer, Kaffeine, Totem, jne. Aluekoodeista ei piitata ja voit hyppiä yli mistä tahansa copyright-teksteistä ja pakollisista logoista/trailereistä.
LinDVD:n saa kyllä ostettua jo, mutta se ei murra aluekoodeja, eikä salli hyppäämistä yli sellaisissa kohdissa, jotka on levyltä estetty. Eli toimii samoin kuin tavallinen DVD-soitin tai Windows-/Mac-DVD-toisto-ohjelma.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 12.42
Miten asentaa distron ulkopuolinen ohjelma lähdekoodipaketista?? Itse puran paketin, sanon configure, make ja lopuksi roottina checkinstall. Tämän jälkeen minulla on omaan järjestelmääni sopiva ohjelmapaketti, jonka asentaminen tapahtuu kuin muidenkin ohjelmien kanssa rpm. Hatusta heittäen 95% ohjelmista asentuu näin. configure voi tietysti valittaa puuttuvista kirjastoista, mutta ne sitten vain täytyy asentaa pakettimanagerilla.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 12.57
Haluaisin edelleenkin _laillisen_ DVD-elokuvien soitto-ohjelman. Onko Libdvdcss laillinen?
LinDVD:tä ei saa ostettua ainakaan valmitajan kotisivuilta:
http://www.intervideo.com/jsp/LinDVD.jsp
“Can I get a copy of LinDVD?
LinDVD, InterVideo’s Linux software DVD player, is currently available only to manufacturers for evaluation and integration.”
Tuoreimmat uutiset LinDVD:stä ovat muuten vuodelta 2003.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 13.13
Ossi:
Minulla on LinDVD ainakin käytössä Mandriva 2007 PowerPackissä. libdvdcss on tietääkseni Suomessa laillinen.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 14.22
“Haluaisin edelleenkin laillisen DVD-elokuvien soitto-ohjelman. Onko Libdvdcss laillinen?”
Miksi jaappaat tätä yhtä asiaa niin kuin pikkulapsi?
Minä haluan käyttiksen ilman mitään kustannuksia (ok, CD/DVD voidaan maksaa) ja mielelläni siten että se pyörii vuodenkin päästä jouhevasti huolimatta runsaasta nettikäytöstä. Onnistuuko se Windows -maailmassa?
Sitä paitsi katson elokuvat DVD -soittimelta.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 14.35
Minullakin on Lindvd asennettuna Mandrivaan. Toimiikin ihan hyvin, tosin mieluummin käytän Xinea levyn suojauksien murtamisen ansiosta (mukavampi käyttää). Taitaa valmistajan sivut Lindvd:stä olla aika vanhentuneet.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 14.51
“HD-DVD/Blueray levyjen soittoohjelmat?”
Jahka noihin standardisotiin saadaan jotain tolkkua ja DVD:t häviävät lopullisesti, katsotaan sitten asiaa uudelleen. Kuka ostaa keskenkasvuista tekniikkaa yli tonnilla (blueray/hd-dvd-asemat)?
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 14.59
LinDVD:hen tulee tuki Blu-ray ja HD-DVD levyille. Ja ohjelmahan on ollut saatavana jo vuodesta 2000, ihan yksinään (ei siis pelkkänä embedded-teknologiana). Epäilemättä Blu-ray ja HD-DVD saavat myös oman “murtokirjastonsa”, jotta kopiosuojaukset voidaan ohittaa vapaissa ohjelmissa.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.15
Ossi: ”Haluaisin edelleenkin laillisen DVD-elokuvien soitto-ohjelman. Onko Libdvdcss laillinen?”
Sorkkarauta: “Miksi jaappaat tätä yhtä asiaa niin kuin pikkulapsi?”
Tämä on ilmiselvästi vaikea asia; Linux-yhteisölle tuntuu olevan jotenkin mahdotonta myöntää, että Linux-pohjaisilla HTPC:llä on suuria vaikeuksia järjestää DVD-, HD-DVD ja Blu-Ray -levyjen soitto päivänvaloa kestävällä tavalla.
Suomessa nykyään voimassa olevan Lex Karpelan myötä DeCSS:n ja Libdvdcss:n kaltaiten murto-ohjelmien laillinen status on vähintäänkin kyseenalainen.
Eikai voi olla paha asia haluta varmistaa toimivansa laillisesti?
En kyllä edelleenkään löytänyt LinDVD:n valmistajan sivuilta tietoa siitä miten ohjelman saisi yksityishenkilönä ostaa. Löytyykö osoitetta?
Ylipäätään on hyvä juttu jos LinDVD:n saa Mandrivan Powerpack 2007:n mukana, mutta miten saisin LinDVD:n Ubuntuun, Suseen tai Fedora Coreen?
Vai tuliko valittua väärä distro?
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.28
“Tämä on ilmiselvästi vaikea asia”
Ennemminkin ketään ei voisi vähempää kiinnostaa.
Mutta joka tapauksessa: libdvdcss EI ole laiton Lex Karpelan myötä, levyjen toistaminen on edelleen täysin laillista, tälle on ihan oma pykälänsäkin. Etkö osaa Googlea käyttää? Miksi pitää inttää tyhjänpäiväisistä asioista?
“Löytyykö osoitetta?”
http://www.google.com
Voit myös ladata ohjelman RPM-paketin ja asentaa sen muuhunkin distroon, lisenssinhän saat ostamalla vaikka sen Mandriva PowerPackin (ei sinun tarvitse sitä Mandrivaa käyttää). alien asentaa myös Debian-pohjaisiin distroihin, kuten Ubuntu.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.33
Vielä korjausta:
LinDVD tuleekin jokaisen Mandrivan pakettiversion mukana, ainoastaan ilmaisversiossa ei. Eli halvimmillaan koko distron LinDVD:n kera saa n. 25 – 35 eurolla. Myös joidenkin asemien mukana toimitetaan jo bundlattuna LinDVD, ilmaiseksi kuten Windowsillekin.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.37
["Vai tuliko valittua väärä distro?"]
Selvitähän minulle, MILLÄ tavalla yksi kaupallinen käyttöjärjestelmä on parempi asia, kuin yksi jakelupaketti, jossa jokin kaupallinen ohjelma tulee mukana?
Jos haluat ko. ohjelman, käytä sitten sitä Mandrivaa. Eihän sinulla Windowsinkaan kanssa ole mitään valinnanvaraa – yksi “distro”. Tai asenna se softa käyttämääsi jakeluun, kyllä sekin onnistuu.
Ketään muuta ei sitten vähempää voisikaan kiinnostaa joku libdvdcss:n laillisuus, jos olen ostanut elokuvan, saan minä myös sen suojaukset murtaa ja sillä sipuli.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.46
Ossipa se on kovin avuton. Tekijänoikeuslaista:
http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp/ptk_99_2005_ke_1.htm
“Julkisuudessa on keskusteltu paljon myös siitä, tuleeko Linuxin libdvdcss-kirjastosta tai Macintosh-tietokoneista tämän lain myötä laittomia. Yksiselitteisesti ei tule, koska niitä voidaan käyttää myös muihin tarkoituksiin kuin suojausten kiertoon. Tämä rajaus kopiosuojauksen kiertoteknologian kieltävässä 50 b §:ssä on sinänsä välttämätön, koska muuten jopa piirtoheitintussit muuttuisivat Suomessa laittomiksi. Edellinen tekijänoikeuslakiesitys olisi tarkoittanut tätä. Piirtoheitintussin avulla kun voi kiertää erään cd-levyissä käytetyn kopiosuojauksen. Käytännössä rajaus on kuitenkin mieletön, sillä mikä tahansa kiertoteknologia muuttuu lailliseksi heti, kun se pultataan jonkin laajemman kokonaisuuden osaksi. Mitä mieltä on kriminalisoida ja sanktioida yksittäinen kopiosuojausten purkamiseen tarkoitettu ohjelma, kun sama purkuominaisuus on laajemman ohjelmistokokonaisuuden osana laillinen?”
Ei siis tarvita LinDVD:tä. Siihen lisenssin voi ostaa valmistajalta ja ohjelman imuroida vaikkapa RPM-pakettina.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 15.47
“Tämä on ilmiselvästi vaikea asia; Linux-yhteisölle tuntuu olevan jotenkin mahdotonta myöntää, että Linux-pohjaisilla HTPC:llä on suuria vaikeuksia järjestää DVD-, HD-DVD ja Blu-Ray -levyjen soitto päivänvaloa kestävällä tavalla.”
Minulle se ei ole vaikea asia myöntää, alunperinhän kysymys oli että saako sitä Linuxille laillisesti niin menee ja ostaa Mandrivan powerpackin. Joten sinähän kyseenalaistit saako sen Linuxille johon sait vastauksen että kyllä saa. Miksi tätä pitää lähteä sotkemaan distrotasolle?
En ole vielä niin nörtti että katselen tietokoneen kautta DVD:tä. Se raha mikä menee Windowsien ja tietokoneiden päivittämiseen, riittää hyvin DVD:n ostamiseen.
Mutta miten olikaan Ossi nämä aikaisemmat kysymykseni?
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 16.01
Kaupallinen, suljettu LinDVD tulee myös ainakin Mandrivan Discovery-paketissa, joka maksanee alle puolet Powerpackin hinnasta. Vaikea nähdä sille kuitenkaan käyttötarkoitusta kun DVD:n katselu muutenkaan ei ole Linuxilla laittomaksi muuttunut, ei edes uuden tekijänoikeuslain myötä.
Mukavampihan niitä levyjä on tuon paljon puhutun purkukirjaston kanssa katsella. Aseman ja levyn aluekoodeilla ei ole silloin mitään merkitystä ja käyttäjä on hallinnassa, mitä haluaa hypätä yli ja mitä katsella (tekijänoikeustekstit, piratisminvastaiset mainokset ja tuotantoyhtiöiden logot yli vaan).
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 16.01
Kaupallinen, suljettu LinDVD tulee myös ainakin Mandrivan Discovery-paketissa, joka maksanee alle puolet Powerpackin hinnasta. Vaikea nähdä sille kuitenkaan käyttötarkoitusta kun DVD:n katselu muutenkaan ei ole Linuxilla laittomaksi muuttunut, ei edes uuden tekijänoikeuslain myötä.
Mukavampihan niitä levyjä on tuon paljon puhutun purkukirjaston kanssa katsella. Aseman ja levyn aluekoodeilla ei ole silloin mitään merkitystä ja käyttäjä on hallinnassa, mitä haluaa hypätä yli ja mitä katsella (tekijänoikeustekstit, piratisminvastaiset mainokset ja tuotantoyhtiöiden logot yli vaan).
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 16.12
Jos tämä “Ossi Mäntylahti” on sama henkilö, kuin podcastissa, on alussa mainittu “3 tietotekniikka-asiantuntijaa” kyllä väärin. Ensinnäkin, ketään ei ilman aktiivista Linux- ja UNIX-tietämystä voida nykypäivänä sanoa “tietotekniikka-asiantuntijaksi”. Toisekseen, jos ei sen vertaa osaa googlea käyttää nyt vaikka tuohon libdvdcss ja tekijänoikeuslakiin liittyen, on se vähintäänkin outoa ihmiseltä, jota kutsutaan “tietotekniikka-asiantuntijaksi”. Itsekin löysin asiasta tietoa parin minuutin haulla. Kokeilin huvikseni, että onko se nyt muka niin vaikeaa. No, ei ollut.
Just my two cents.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 16.29
Omituista juttua oli jollakin windows-miehellä tuossa keskustelussa. Ei tuntunut ymmärtävän OEM-asennuksen ja retail-asennuslevyn eroja. En ole nähnyt yhtään retail-XP:tä, joka olisi ilman erillisten ajureiden asentamista toiminut missään koneessa. Valmistajien kustomoidut OEM-levyt ovat täysin eri asia ja niitähän löytyy Linux-jakeluillekin (SuSE, Linspire, jne.). Parempi todennäköisyys on ilman erillisiä ajuriasennuksia saada kaikki laitteet toimimaan retail-Linuxin levyllä kuin retail-XP:n levyllä. Linux-kernel kun sisältää kaikki avoimen koodin ajurit jo valmiiksi.
Ko. henkilö ei myöskään pystynyt käsittämään, että keskustelufoorumilla voi tulla kommentteja “väärä distro”. Juttu nyt vain on niin, että kaupallista tukea saa Linuxillekin laittamalla rahaa tiskiin. Jos ei huvita maksaa, sitten on omillaan tai niiden foorumeiden varassa ja saa kuunnella “väärä distro”-kommentteja. Etenkin, jos menee kyselemään väärän distron (jota ei edes itse käytä) foorumilta.
22. tammikuuta 2007 kello 16.43
Voi Voi, kyllä se on niin kauhean vaikeaa alkaa käyttämään linuxia ja saa vielä herjat päälle. Nyyh…
Ei voi kuin ihmetellä, kuinka tähänastiset “linux-yhteisöläiset” ovat selvinneet moisesta kiirastulesta. Liekö heillä käytössä jotain äidinmaidosta saatuja supervoimia? Ei pidä tavallisen windows-ammattilaisen lähteä edes kokeilemaan samanlaisia urotekoja. Jää pian DVD:kin laillisesti katsomatta toisin kuin sillä wareXP:llä!
Kyl mää nyt kauhiast ihmettelan…
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 5.44
Pitääpäs seuraavassa rektytointiprosessissa olla kriittisempi niitä kohtaan jotka markkinoivat itseään tietotekniikan asiantuntijoiksi.
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 9.30
Vai ei Ossi osannut Linuxista digiboksia virittää. Minulla on ollut käytössä jo yli 2 vuotta =)
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 9.40
Niin no jos eriteltäisiin Windows-asiantuntija, Linux-guru, koodari yms. toisistaan. Eihän tuollainen tietotekniikka-asiantuntija edes tarkoita mitään
Sama kuin pistäisi ansioluetteloon sen yhden rivin: Jack of All Trades.
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.33
Mikähän on Windows -asiantuntijan rooli Linuxin tulevaisuuskeskustelussa?
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 20.18
Muutama seikka pisti keskustelusta korvaan:
- Linuxista ei saa digiboksia: Kaupallisista erillisistä digibokseista ainakin Dreamboxit ovat nimenomaan Linuxin päälle rakennettuja. Tästä voisi äkkiseltään päätellä, että kyllä Linuxin päälle saa digiboksin kasattua.
(kts. esimerkiksi http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7482684956.html )
Tarkoitukseen optimoituja erillisiä distribuutioitakin vastaavasti löytyy jokunen, joten haluttaessa tehdä ylimääräisestä koneesta lähinnä digiboksikäyttöön tarkoitettu kapistus ei hommaa tarvitse aloittaa tyhjästä.
- Pelit kieltämättä ovat Linuxin heikkouksien joukossa; jonkin verran ihan kelvollisia opensource-pelejä löytyy, mutta kaupallisista peleistä varmaan >99% jää muiden riemuksi, ellei sitten Cedegalla/Winellä yritä paikata tilannetta. Loki Games yritti tehdä käännöksillä rahaa vuosituhannen vaihteessa, mutta tuotot jäivät liian vaatimattomiksi, eikä kukaan oikein ole uskaltanut täyttää kunnolla tyhjiötä, vaikka markkinoita jo ehkä enemmän nykyään voisikin olla.
- Ajan ilmaisuudesta; säätäminen ei ole mikään pakollinen pitkäaikainen suoritus, mutta eikö uuden oppimisella, uteliaisuuden tyydyttämisellä, onnistumisen riemulla jne. ole mitään arvoa? Toki yrityksissä joudutaan miettimään ajankäyttöä ja budjetteja, mutta varsinkin kotikäytössä luulisi jo ei-rahallisillakin menoilla _ja_ tuloilla olevan väliä. (Tietty mitään pakkoa käyttää sekuntiakaan Linuxin parissa sen enempää kuin muidenkaan käyttisten ei ole, jos ko. ympäristö ei kiinnosta.)
23. tammikuuta 2007 kello 23.06
Aika paljon joutuu windowsia säätämään nimen omaan yrityskäytössä. Kuluneen ajan päälle saa vielä laskea tietoturva- ja hallintaohjelmistojen lisenssimaksut varsinaisten työkäytössä olevien sovellusten lisäksi.
Sanoisinkin juuri windowsin olevan se todellinen “säätökäyttis”. Legendat linuxin säätämisestä taitavat juontua enemmänkin joidenkin “windowsammattilaisen” epäonnistuneesta yrityksestä kääntää jotain joskus historiassa.
Linuxin ylläpito on taas on melko yksinkertaista, suorastaan vaivatonta. Ehkäpä se sitten työllistää liian vähän kaikenmaailman turhakkeita, joita tarvitaan businessmaaimassa vetämään välistä.
26. tammikuuta 2007 kello 11.22
“15 vuotta taaksepäin…”
Ohjelman asennus esim kubuntussa on helpompaa kuin windowsilla, käyttäjä valitsee asenna / poista ohjelmia -ohjelman valikosta ryhmän mitä haluaa asentaa, esim “tekstinkäsittely” siitä sitten selaa mitä tarvitsee, ruksittaa sen ja painaa “toteuta”. Asennus on ohi ja käyttäjä käyttää sitä. Windows käyttäjä taas etsii CD:tä tai nettiä ja lataa ohjelmaa ja alkaa asenteleen. Kumpi on vaikeampaa?
Windows evangelisti unotaa täysin kokonaan sen että hän OSAA windowsin, OLETTAA että tavallinen käyttäjä OSAA windowsin, ja yrittää väittämällä soveltaa WINDOWS osaamista LINUX osaamiseen, eikä osaa edes katsoa niiden MS lasien läpi mikä on todellisuudessa helpompaa. Olisi kiva tietää missä meni se 2h yöllä asentaakseen jotain, voisin varmaan saman tehdä onnistuneesti 3 minuutissa….
26. tammikuuta 2007 kello 17.36
Minäkin ihmettelen sitä, että mitä ihmettä OM tarkoitti sillä, ettei linuxin päälle saa rakennettua digiboksia???
Esim. linux:in VDR-projektihan on jo suorastaan legendaarinen ja toinen on, itsekin käyttämäni, mythtv. Sitten on olemassa vielä kaffeine, josta en tosin tiedä juuri mitään.
Eihän tuo nyt muuten, mutta kun tuon lukee TK-lehdestä “tavalliset” ihmiset ja luulevat vielä, että se on totta.
No, sehän vaan kertoo sen, että tämän miehen komentteihin ei sitten muutenkaan voi luottaa…
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 3.52
Linux aktivistit ovat täällä valittaneet Windowsin ohjelmien asennuksen vaikeutta. Sokeaa haukkumista, minun mielestä. Se koira älähtää johon kalikka kalahtaa?
En ole vielä yhtään _laadukasta_ Win32 rajapinnalle ohjelmoitua ohjelmaa löytänyt, joka ei olisi ilman kikkailuja Windows 2000:een asentunut. Jos joku softa ei asennu, niin se on paskasti koodattu. Ja ne muutamat _huonot_ softat jotka eivät ole suoraan asentuneet, ovat olleet juurikin OpenSource intoilijoiden hätäisesti kyhäämiä beta-kikkareita.
Ns. DLL-helvetti on täyttä valetta. Suurin osa (99%) ohjelmista paketoidaan niin, että ainoastaan Win32 base-systemin ja mahdollisesti MFC:n dll:ät linkitetään dynaamisesti, kaikki ulkoiset dll:ät toimitetaan paketissa mukana tai käännetään staattisesti binääriin. Ohjelma toimii juuri niinkuin pitääkin, ja kaikki on tyytyväisiä.
Sitäpaitsi, yleensä Windows ohjelmat ohjelmoidaan hakemaan ohjelmakohtaiset datatiedostonsa sen hakemistopuun alta (GetModuleDir() Win32 rajapintakutsu), mihin suoritettava binääri on asennettu. Täten ohjelmat voidaan eristää toisistaan täysin riippumattomiin sijainteihin, eivätkä ne sekoita toisiaan tai base-systemiä (C:\\WINNT tai C:\\WINDOWS).
Paljon parempi ratkaisu jopa Windowsissa. Vrt. GNU/Linuxeihin, missä kaikki ohjelmat sotketaan suoraan /usr -alle, samaan sotkuun järjestelmän muiden (kriittisempien) tiedostojen kanssa, ja jätetään järjestelmän vakaus ainoastaan paketinhallinnan varaan. On se kumma kun ei voi /usr/local:ia tai /opt:ia käyttää, niinkuin kunnon Unix(like) järjestelmissä 3rd party softat yleensä? Pyh.
GNU/Linux järjestelmillä on vielä niin paljon lapsellisen typeriä toteutuksia, etten oikeasti usko niiden yleistyvän yksityiskäyttäjien markkinoilla nykyistä osuutta enempää.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.47
Arto Pekkanen on sitten asioista täysin pihalla.
Minulla tulee ainakin jatkuvasti ihan kaupallisiakin softia vastaan Windows-alustalla, jotka joko rikkovat muiden ohjelmien toiminnan sotkemalla yleisiä DLL-tiedostoja, tai joilta puuttuu toimintaan vaadittavat DLL-tiedostot.
“Ja ne muutamat huonot softat jotka eivät ole suoraan asentuneet, ovat olleet juurikin OpenSource intoilijoiden hätäisesti kyhäämiä beta-kikkareita.”
Tuohan kertoo sinusta kaiken. Miten voit odottaa BETA-tasolla olevan ohjelman toimivan oikein?? Eikö tuo sana “BETA” kerro jo kaiken tarvittavan? Että kyseessä on testi-/esiversio? Vai onko tämä sinulle liian vaikeaa ymmärtää?
Windowsissa mikään ei kontrolloi ohjelmien asentamia tiedostoja. Keskitetty paketinhallinta puuttuu täysin. TÄMÄ on surkeaa suunnittelua. UNIX/Linux-järjestelmissä mikään ei estä sinua asentamasta softiasi sinne /usr/local- tai /opt-hakemistoihin. Your choice.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.57
Hohhoijakkaa näitä Pekkasen tapaisia kommentoijia. Käytetään beta-softaa ja ihmetellään kun se ei toimi. Äly hoi?
DLL-tiedostojen linkittäminen staattisesti ei ole mikään ratkaisu, itsestäänselvistä syistä. Linuxin puolella tämä on onneksi onnistuttu välttämään ja dynaamista linkitystä käytetään lähes aina. Riippuvuuksien ratkonta on huippuluokkaa, paketinhallinta pitää huolen järjestelmän eheydestä.
Jos saisin euron joka kerta kun olen korjannut DLL-helvetin hajottamaa Windows-konetta, olisin varmaan miljonääri. Ja mikäs ongelma sen /opt:n käyttämisessä on? Minulla on suurin osa softasta nimenomaan siellä, koska olen näin halunnut tehdä.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.59
Btw, takana on muuten satojen ajurilevyjen ja -pakettien aika, sekä jonkun pirun freeware-ohjelman metsästäminen download.com:ista ja Tucowsista. Kiitos Linuxin. Enkä maksa ohjelmistani penniäkään, saati sitten käytä jotain perhanan shareware-kuraa.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 12.03
Mielenkiintoista nämä Pekkasen puheet. Beta-versioissa ei saisi olla vikoja ja Windows-ohjelmilla ei ole DLL-ongelmia? Varmaan sitten lehmätkin lentävät?
Jos Linuxissa on kerran “niin paljon lapsellisen typeriä toteutuksia”, selitähän minulle: miksi AMMATTILAISET eivät niistä valita tai niitä korjaa JA miksi Linux on palvelinalustana paljon suositumpi kuin Windows? Itse asiassa Linux on ajamassa ohi jopa vanhoista Unixeista.
Mielenkiintoisia pointteja, mutta ehkäpä ensin jään odottamaan kuitenkin sitä lehmien lentämistä kuin uskon niihin.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 17.52
Niin, en koskaan odotakkaan beta-ohjelmien toimivan kunnolla. Mutta on niitä kuitenkin tullut testattua. Ja ne ovat todellakin olleet niitä, jotka ovat ongelmia aiheuttaneet. Beta-versioissa onkin vikoja, ja halusin tässä nimenomaan syytää vian ohjelmien, enkä niinkään käyttöjärjestelmien niskoille. Se on nimenomaan ohjelman vika, jos 1) se on pakko asentaa administratorina (jolloin se voi aiheuttaa tuhojaan) 2) se ei asennu kunnolla ja 3) ei käynnisty suoraan asennuksen jälkeen.
Hyvät ohjelmat on tehty jopa niin, että niitä ei tarvitse erikseen asentaa. Riittää vaan, että purkaa ohjelman paketista ja ajaa binäärin.
En ole semmoisia _hyviä_ ja _tarpeellisia_ ohjelmia vielä löytänyt, jotka olisivat Windows NT pohjaisen koneen sotkeneet. Windows NT pohjaisia järjestelmiä tullu käytettyä vuodesta 1999 lähtien.
>> Windowsissa mikään ei kontrolloi ohjelmien asentamia tiedostoja.
>> Keskitetty paketinhallinta puuttuu täysin. TÄMÄ on surkeaa
>> suunnittelua.
Keskitettyä paketinhallintaa ei tarvitse Win32 userlandissa, koska Windowsissa on standardoitu että minne ohjelmat asentavat tiedostonsa, minne ne saavat kirjoittaa ja mistä lukea. On olemassa useita laadukkaita ohjelmistoja, jotka tekevät näiden standardien pohjalle valmiit installeripaketit eri ohjelmille (mm. InstallShield, Microsoft Installer).
Ainoat ongelmat muodostuu ohjelmista, jotka haluavat rekisteröidä dll:iä jaetuiksi, eivätkä poista rekisteröintejä asennuksen jälkeen automaattisesti. Tällöin rekisteriin jää merkintöjä ohjelmakirjastoista joita ei enää käytetä. Mutta nämä jaetut dll:ät voi itse käsin poistaa myöhemmin, tai jos on laiska niin käyttää jotain registry-cleaner tyyppistä softaa.
Tosin, huomautan että tuommoisia rekisteriä sotkevia ohjelmistoja on aika vähän. Suurin osa ohjelmistoista käyttää ainoastaan itse toimittamiaan dll:iä eikä niitä tarvitse rekisteröidä minnekkään (stand alone ohjelmat).
Jos on kauhea paranoia siitä, että sotkeeko joku ohjelma sinun Windowsin, voi tehdä uuden Power User accountin, ja estää ko. käyttäjän kirjoitusoikeudet c:\WINNT | c:\WINDOWS sijainteihin. Asentaa sitten tällä käyttäjällä ohjelmistot, ja voi olla varma etteivät ne pääse sotkemaan base-systemiä millään tavalla. Kaikki kunnolliset installerit, ja Windowsin sisäänrakennettu MSI-rajapinta, kirjoittavat vain Program Files hierarkian, tai käyttäjäkohtaisten Read/Write hakemistojen sisään.
GNU/Linuxeissa kaikkien tiedostojen sotkeminen suoraan /usr:än alle on ongelmallisempaa. Jos jokin paketti ei ole yhteensopiva kohdedistron kanssa, voi se ylikirjoittaa muita tärkeitä jaettuja komponentteja. Toki paketinhallinnat varoittavat tällaisesta operaatiosta, mutta silti olisi parempaa, että järjestelmän perustoimintojen kannalta kriittiset tiedostot olisivat /usr:än alla suoraan, ja 3rd party ohjelmistot menisivät ainoastaan /usr/local:iin tai /opt:iin … tällöin viallinen paketti ei voi sotkea kuin 3rd party softat.
Kun käytetään yhtä ja samaa prefixiä kaikille ohjelmille, on järjestelmän vakaus pelkästään paketinhallinnan varassa. Minun mielestä tämä on täysin väärä asenne. Base-systemin tulisi olla paketinhallinnalle read-only kokonaisuus. Käyttöjärjestelmän päivitys ja oheisohjelmien päivitys tulisi olla kokonaan toisistaan erillään.
>> UNIX/Linux-järjestelmissä mikään ei estä sinua asentamasta softiasi
>> sinne /usr/local- tai /opt-hakemistoihin. Your choice.
Tuossa tapauksessa minun on käännettävä softat itse, koska valitettavasti suurin osa OpenSource komponenteista hakee shared datansa staattisen prefixin perusteella. Distrojen paketit on yleensä prefixattu /usr:ään …
Eli lyhyesti, haluaisin GNU/Linux distrojen kehittäjien harkitseman tarkemmin mitkä komponentit kuuluvat base-systemiin, eli ovat kriittisiä järjestelmän toiminnan kannalta, ja mitkä komponentit ovat vain add-on paketteja. Base-system tulisi prefixaa suoraan /usr:än alle, ja lisäpalikat sitten /usr/local:iin. Näin tehdää kaikissa *BSD järjestelmissä (ja monissa kaupallisissa Unix järjestelmissä), ja mielestäni tämä on tällä hetkellä toimivin ratkaisu. Paketin hallinnan hajoaminen ei haittaa järjestelmän toimivuutta, koska voi vaan poistaa /usr/local/* ( lukuunottamatta /usr/local/etc )ja nollata paketinhallinnan pakettilistat, ja asentaa tarvittavat ohjelmat uudestaan.
Tosin aina kun tällaista ehdottaa, saa GNU/Linux aktivisteilta lähinnä pään aukomista vastaukseksi. Ei kovin rakentavaa.
>> DLL-tiedostojen linkittäminen staattisesti ei ole mikään ratkaisu,
>> itsestäänselvistä syistä.
Kertoisitko nuo itsestäänselvät syyt?
Minun mielestä se on kolmannen osapuolien asia pitää ohjelmistoonsa linkitetyt staattiset/dynaamiset ohjelmakirjastot ajantasalla. Näin tämä homma toimii Windowsissa, ja toimii ihan hyvin.
Turha valittaa, että “muistia kuluu enemmän kun kaikki ei ole jaettua” tai muuta vastaavaa, koska nykyään muistista ei ole pulaa.
>> Riippuvuuksien ratkonta on huippuluokkaa, paketinhallinta pitää huolen
>> järjestelmän eheydestä.
Järjestelmän eheyden ei pitäisi olla minkään paketinhallinnan varassa. Käyttöjärjestelmän base-systemin tulee olla yksi ja monoliittinen kokonaisuus, joka pystyy nykäsemaan systeemin pystyyn vaikka paketinhallinta olisi seonnut.
Riippuvuuksien ratkonta on “huippuluokkaa” ainoastaan, jos käytetään distron omia paketteja. Ja ainoastaan silloin homma toimii, jos pakettien tekijät ovat osanneet pistää riippuvuudet järkevästi. Monesti Debianissa itseäni otti päähän se, että joku yksinkertainen komentorivisofta (esimerkkinä SCons) veti mukaansa riippuvuuksia joihinkin gtk/gnome kirjastoihin. Monissa tapauksissa päädyin tekemään oman puhtaan LSB-kääntöympäristön chrootiin, ja kääntämään ohjelmat itse.
Kaikki GNU/Linux distrot pystyy, aivan kuin Windowsinkin, sekoittamaan oikein suunnitellulla paketilla. Paketit vaatii asentuakseen root-oikeudet, koska ne kirjoittaa suoraan /usr:än alle ja muokkaa monia järjestelmän kriittisiä asetustiedostoja /etc:n alla. Tässä on erittäin hyvä mahdollisuus sotkea koko systeemi joko vahingossa tai tahallisesti. Ulkoiset valvomattomat repositoryt ovat minulla joskus hajoittaneet Debianin, kun on pitänyt käyttää Testing-branchin libraryja saadakseen nuo ulkoiset softat toimimaan.
Minun mielestä tuo riippuvuuksien ratkonta ei ole se pääasiallinen ongelma paketinhallinnoissa. Riippuvuudet ovat oikeasti väärä tapa lähestyä koko ongelmaa. Ensimmäinen ongelma on se, että miten määritellään GNU/Linux distroille yhtenäinen ohjelmistorajapinta (ohjelmakirjastojen ja apuohjelmien standardoitu kokoelma), joka olisi tarpeeksi _kattava_ ja _vakaa_, johon kaikki ohjelmat voisivat distrosta riippumatta rakentua. Toinen ongelma on se, että miten ohjelmat saadaan eristettyä järjestelmästä ja toisistaan niin, että ne eivät missään tapauksessa pääse sotkemaan mitään muuta kuin omia asetuksiaan tai tiedostojaan. Windowsin, ja esim. kaupallisten Linux softien, tapa toimittaa tarvittavat jaetut kirjastot ohjelman mukana ja asentua eristettyyn sijaintiin on toimivin ratkaisu tähän asti.
>> Jos saisin euron joka kerta kun olen korjannut DLL-helvetin hajottamaa
>> Windows-konetta, olisin varmaan miljonääri.
Jotkut ihmiset asentelevat huonoja softia niin, että ne pääsevät sotkemaan järjestelmän. Ei tämä ole Windowsin vika, vaan käyttäjän vika, kun hän antaa typerän ohjelman sotkea järjestelmänsä.
Tuossa edellä jo mainitsin, että Power User accountilla softien asentaminen on turvallisempaa, jos säätää filesystem ACL:ät kuntoon …
>> miksi AMMATTILAISET eivät niistä valita tai niitä korjaa JA miksi Linux
>> on palvelinalustana paljon suositumpi kuin Windows?
Palvelinalustoille ei jatkuvasti asennella ja poistella softaa. Eikä palvelimia myöskään päivitellä joka ikinen päivä, ihan siitä syystä ettei tule turhaa kuormaa.
Suurin osa ongelmista GNU/Linux puolella tulee nimenomaan työpöytäkäytössä, kun pitää alkaa virittelemään lisäominaisuuksia tai saada sitä kaikkein uusinta uutta softaa koneeseen.
Enkä kommentoi tuohon, että onko GNU/Linux suositumpi kuin Windows. FUD Microsoftin tai GNU/Linux fanaatikkojen leireistä pilaa kaikki tutkimustulokset, enkä halua joutua täysin tyhjänpäiväisen fleimisodan uhriksi.
>> Mielenkiintoisia pointteja, mutta ehkäpä ensin jään odottamaan
>> kuitenkin sitä lehmien lentämistä kuin uskon niihin.
Mitä lehmien lentämisellä on mitään tekemistä tämän asian kanssa? Voitaisiinko pysyä asiassa. Kiitos.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 20.11
Ja vielä haluaisin kaikkia kommentoijia lukemaan erittäin ajankohtaisen GNU/Linux järjestelmien rajapintoja koskevia ongelmia käsittelevän artikkelin:
http://plan99.net/autopackage/Linux_Problems
Kaikki tuossa base-systemiä (tai pikemminkin yhtenäisen sellaisen puutetta) koskevat ongelmat on jo Windows NT pohjaisilla systeemeillä ratkaistu. Kuten myös kaupallisissa Unix järjestelmissä (sis. Mac OS X ja Solaris), ja BSD järjestelmissä.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 21.33
Voi voi näitä Arton juttuja, kun ei niissä ole päätä eikä häntää. Windows-puolen suurin ongelma on juuri se pahuksen sekoileva rekisteri, josta ei ota erkkikään selvää ja ohjelmien asennuspaikkojen standardoinnin puute. Asennusohjelmia on tuhansia erilaisia ja ne asentavat ohjelmia vähintään yhtä moneen paikkaan. Windowsin saan asentaa joka 6 kk uusiksi, Linux toimii aina vaan. Paketinhallinta toimii.
Rekisteri ja epämääräiset asennusohjelmat ovat aina olleet Windowsin suurin ongelma. Ja staattisesti linkitetyt kirjastot, jotka kierrättävät yhden kirjaston turva-aukot miljoonaan tiedostoon.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 22.56
Arto: Oletko sinä koskaan käyttänyt Windowsia?
Kysyn tätä siksi, että kommenttisi menee ristiin kaikkien Windows-käyttäjien kokemusten ja yleisen faktatiedon kanssa. Jokainen paljon Windowsia käyttänythän tietää, että kyseessä on luhistuva järjestelmä. Paljon ohjelmia asenteleva ja poisteleva joutuu asentamaan sen uusiksi 3 – 12 kuukauden välein, tai vaihtoehtoisesti kärsii hitaasta ja/tai sekoilevasta järjestelmästä. Tämä johtuu siitä, että
A) rekisteri täyttyy ja hidastuu
B) SYSTEM/SYSTEM32 täytyy ja hidastaa konetta, usein myös täyttää koko C-aseman
Tarkemmin asiasta…
A:
Rekisteri on täysin käsittämätön paikka kenelle vain, eikä sieltä voi mennä noin vain poistelemaan isoja kasoja tietoa. Suurin osa ohjelmista kirjoittaa merkintänsä järjestelmärekisterin puolelle, ei käyttäjärekisteriin. Tämä johtaa vääjäämättä siihen, että rekisteriin kertynyttä roskaa ei sieltä koskaan saa pois ilman koko Windowsin uudelleenasennusta (tai palautusta jostain vanhasta imagesta/statesta).
B:
Hyvin pitkälti samat asiat pätevät paitsi SYSTEM32-kansioon, myös muihin WINDOWS/WINNT-kansion alla sijaitseviin hakemistoihin. Jokainen ohjelma kirjoittaa minne huvittaa ja kerran asennetut DLL-tiedostot yleensä jäävät järjestelmään aina seuraavaan uudelleenasennukseen asti. Myöskään täältä käyttäjä ei voi noin vain mennä poistelemaan tiedostoja ja se olisi monessa tapauksessa vaikeampaa kuin puhdas uudelleenasennus.
Kumpikaan asia ei siis ole estettävissä, jos asentelee ja poistelee ohjelmia paljon esimerkiksi kokeilumielessä. Linuxissa molemmat asiat on estetty.
A: Rekisteriä ei ole lainkaan; ei siis ole mitään, mitä täyttyä. Konfiguraatiotiedostot ovat hyvin kommentoituja ja erittäin helppoja editoida/poistaa. Ne on lajiteltu ohjelmittain käyttäjän kotihakemistoon, joten käyttäjän on helppo poistaa sellaisten ohjelmien asetuksen, joita ei enää käytä. Muuttamattomat /etc-kansiossa sijaitsevat konfiguraatiotiedostot lähtevät ohjelman mukana sitä poistettaessa paketinhallinnalla. Muutetuista paketinhallinta tekee automaattisesti varmuuskopion.
B: Järjestelmätiedostoista pitää huolen paketinhallinta. En ole koskaan nähnyt toisen ohjelman korvaavan toisen ohjelman kirjastotiedostoja ja rikkovan ison kasan muita ohjelmia, kuten Windows-puolella jatkuvasti käy. Paketinhallinta pitää huolen, että jokaisen tiedoston alkuperä on helposti määritettävissä. Tästä syystä tiedostojen asentaminen sinne samaan /usr-hakemistoon ei ole millään tavalla ongelma. Samoin ohjelmille luodaan yleensä symbolinen linkki, jolloin ne käynnistyvät aina yksinkertaisella komennolla komentoriviltä. Ei jotain C:\Program Files\blaa blaa\blaa.exe. Ohjelmapaketteja ei myöskään tarvitse itse kääntää käyttääkseen niiden asentamiseen prefixejä; tämä onnistuu paketinhallinnan parametrejä rukkaamalla.
Staattiset kirjastotiedostot ovat huono asia, koska ne syövät tehokkuutta. Tämä ei ehkä ole sinulle ongelma, mutta usko pois, vielä on meitä jotka haluavat kaiken irti järjestelmistään. Muistinsyönti ei kuitenkaan ole suurin ongelma – kirjastotiedostosta mahdollisesti löytyvä tietoturva-aukko pakottaa päivittämään helposti kymmeniä eri ohjelmia, jos ne on staattisesti linkitetty. Dynaamisen kirjaston tapauksessa vain se yksi tiedosto tarvitsee päivittää. Mainitsit “huonoista softista”; noh, Windows-alustalla varmaan suurin osa softasta on “huonoa softaa”, sillä erilaisia installereita on varmasti kymmeniä tuhansia ja jokainen niistä toimii eri tavalla. Mikään ei ole standardoitua, kuten Linux-alustalla, jossa yksi paketinhallinta hoitaa kaiken. Väität paketinhallintaan luottamisen olevan huono asia – mutta Windowsissa ei ole edes tätä, mikä on paljon huonompi asia, juurikin edellämainittujen syiden vuoksi.
Rekisterin puuttuminen Linuxista ja muista UNIX:eista on todellinen siunaus. En voi kylliksi korostaa, kuinka iloinen olen siitä, että tuollainen hirvitys löytyy vain sieltä Windows-puolelta. Linux-järjestelmääni en ole uudelleenasentanut vuosiin, Windows menee uudelleenasennukseen vähintään kerran puolessa vuodessa. Windows on sotkuinen järjestelmä, jossa mikään ei ole standardoitua, API-rajapinnat ovat epämääräisiä ja suurelta osin dokumentoimattomia, jokainen ohjelma käyttää erilaista, omaa asennussoftaansa ja sotkee järjestelmää eri tavalla, DLL-tiedostot korvaavat toisiaan minkää sitä estämättä ja käyttäjä formatoi jälleen kerran kiroten sitä pahuksen täyttyvää C-asemaa, kun Windowsin hakemistosta on melko paha enää koskaan saada sinne kertynyttä roskaa muuten pois.
2. helmikuuta 2007 kello 23.17
Olen ohjelmoinut Windows-ohjelmia yli 12 vuotta ja on pakko kommentoida näihin Pekkasen väitteisiin. Yksi sana: väärin, väärin, väärin, väärin!
Windows tarvitsee nimenomaan standardisointia, koska sellainen siitä puuttuu tyystin.
- Yksi installeri, jota kaikki ohjelmat käyttävät (malliesimerkki: Linux).
- Yksi käyttöliittymä, jota kaikki ohjelmat mukailevat (malliesimerkki: Mac OS X).
- Yksi rajapinta, eli peruskomennot, joita tukea (malliesimerkki: kaikki Unixit).
- Yksi, selkeä tapa tallentaa ohjelmien asetukset (malliesimerkki: kaikki Unixit).
- Ohjelmien toimiminen tavallisena käyttäjänä, ilman admin-oikeuksia (malliesimerkki: kaikki Unixit).
- Keskitetty tapa määrittää, mikä tiedosto kuuluu millekin ohjelmalle (malliesimerkki: Linux).
Windows on mammuttimainen möhkäle, pala historiaa, jonka saattaminen kokonaan tähän päivään vaatisi varmaan enemmän resursseja, mitä millään ohjelmistotalolla on. Jokainen ohjelma tekee, mitä huvittaa. Toinen ohjelma muuttaa toisen asetuksia ja kirjastotiedostoja.
Osa edellämainituista asioista toki pätee myös muihin järjestelmiin, puuttuuhan OS X:stäkin keskitetty paketinhallinta (ja tämä on välillä ongelma), mutta Windows tiedetään yleisesti kaikkein sekavimmaksi järjestelmäksi, jossa edes eri ohjelmien käyttöliittymät eivät pääse lähellekään toisiaan. Microsoftiltahan taannoin myönnettiin, että mallia otetaan nimenomaan Mäkeistä, jotta käyttöliittymän epämääräisyyksiä saataisiin korjattua (mikä ei vieläkään ole onnistunut edes Vistassa, kts. linkki alla). Kaikkein pahin ongelma Windows-puolella on kuitenkin rekisteri. Se on jotain, jota ei olisi koskaan pitänyt keksiä. Dokumentoimattomia asetuksia sikin sokin yhdessä, helposti korruptoituvassa järkäleessä, jonka varmuuskopiointikaan ei ole helppoa.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196800670
3. helmikuuta 2007 kello 1.08
“Turha valittaa, että ”muistia kuluu enemmän kun kaikki ei ole jaettua” tai muuta vastaavaa, koska nykyään muistista ei ole pulaa.”
Jaa että kun laitteistot kehittyvät, pitää tämä ero ikään kuin “kompensoida” huonommalla purkkakoodilla ja surkeilla käytännöillä? Oikein ihailtava asenne, lienee peräisin Microsoftilta Vistan suunnittelusta?
Odotan vieläkin sitä päivää, kun näen jonkin paketin tai ohjelma-asennuksen/-poiston sekoittavan Linux-asennuksen. Asentelen ja poistelen aivan yhtä paljon softaa Linuxissa ja Windowsissa, ja arvatkaas kumpi järjestelmä kämähtää jo muutaman kuukauden jälkeen, kun taas toinen jatkaa menoaan vuosikaupalla? Vihje: se alkaa W:llä.
“Keskitettyä paketinhallintaa ei tarvitse Win32 userlandissa, koska Windowsissa on standardoitu että minne ohjelmat asentavat tiedostonsa, minne ne saavat kirjoittaa ja mistä lukea.”
Haha! Äkillinen naurunpuuskaus johtui kommentin täydellisestä absurdiudesta. Windows-softat kirjoittavat ihan minne haluavat ja vaativat lähes aina pääkäyttäjän oikeudet edes toimiakseen. Mitään ei ole standardoitu ja keskitetylle paketinhallinnalle on HUUTAVA pula.
“Käyttöjärjestelmän päivitys ja oheisohjelmien päivitys tulisi olla kokonaan toisistaan erillään.”
Oletko kenties masokisti? Miksi kukaan haluaisi palata takaisin typerään ja hankalaan Windows-tapaan hakea jokaisen oheisohjelman päivitykset käsin? Linuxissa koko järjestelmä oheisohjelmineen päivittyy kerralla. Koska oheisohjelmat asentuvat distron pakettilähteistä, samasta syystä ne voidaan myös asentaa /usr-hakemistoon.
Paketinhallinta & repot, koko järjestelmän ohjelmineen päivittyminen kerralla, sekä järjestelmärekisterin puuttuminen ovat eräitä suurimmista syistä, miksi minä aloin käyttämään Linuxia. Jos sinua jokin asia risoo, älä uikuta – korjaa asia. Avoimella koodilla tämä on mahdollista. Tosin veikkaanpa, että olet mielipiteinesi aivan ypöyksin tässä asiassa. Nauttikaamme me muut Linux-järjestelmän ylläpidon äärettömästä helppoudesta.
3. helmikuuta 2007 kello 1.25
Tämä Pekkasen Arto näyttää olevan taas näitä Windows-miehiä, joille ainoa oikea toteutustapa on Micro$oft-tapa. Siis oikeasti, tämän täytyy olla ensimmäinen kerta kun kuulen jonkun sanovan positiivisen sanan Windowsin kirouksesta, rekisteristä tai että oheisohjelmien päivittäminen yksitellen on tehokkaampi tapa kuin keskitetty järjestelmäpäivitys. Tai väittävän, että _Linux_ sekoaisi useista ohjelma-asennuksista, vaikka kuka tahansa Windows-käyttäjä on varmasti jo seonnut uudelleenasennuskertojen laskuissaan.
Huh huh, kaikkea sitä kuuleekin kun vanhaksi elää.
3. helmikuuta 2007 kello 10.27
["Ei tämä ole Windowsin vika, vaan käyttäjän vika, kun hän antaa typerän ohjelman sotkea järjestelmänsä."]
Windowsin vikapa hyvinkin. Paketinhallinta ei anna asentaa pakettia, jos siinä oleva ohjelma korvaisi toisen ohjelman tiedostoja.
["Monesti Debianissa itseäni otti päähän..."]
Debian ei ole hyvä esimerkki paketinhallinnasta ja riippuvuuksien ratkonnasta. Sama pätee muihin Debian-pohjaisiin distroihin, kuten Ubuntu. Yleensä, kun puhutaan paketinhallinnasta, puhutaan RPM-pohjaisista järjestelmistä. Debian on roskaa.
3. helmikuuta 2007 kello 21.12
>> Voi voi näitä Arton juttuja, kun ei niissä ole päätä eikä häntää.
Rohkenen väittää toisin. Olen itseopiskellut Windowsin sieluntoimintaa jo useamman vuoden, ja alan pikkuhiljaa ymmärtämään
1) miten nykyisten Windows järjestelmien rekisteri toimii.
2) mitkä ovat yleisimmin käytetyt best-practicet
3) miten hakkeroidaan Windowsin aivokuolleet perusasetukset turvallisiksi
>> Asennusohjelmia on tuhansia erilaisia ja ne asentavat ohjelmia
>> vähintään yhtä moneen paikkaan.
Standardi baseline paketinhallinta löytyy Windowsistakin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Installer
Lukekaa tuo dokumentti jo kiinnostaa. Ainakin siinä tulee ilmi, että tuo sisältää kaiken tarpeellisen mitä paketinhallinnalta voi odottaa.
Se on kaupallisten toimittajien vika, jos eivät tahdo käyttää Windows Installeria (aka Microsoft Installer), joka sandboxittaa .msi pakettien jokaisen rajapintakutsun (ihan rekisterin muokkausta myöten).
Tosin, on joku InstallShield ja WiseInstaller ihan päteviä.
Microsoft Visual Studion mukana tulee muistaakseni sekä Windows Installer että InstallShield pakettien kehitysmoduulit pätevillä wizardeilla ja muilla herkuilla. Käytän itse ilmaista ja (ainakin tarpeeksi) laadukasta DevC++ softaa, niin en mene varmaksi sanomaan.
>> A) rekisteri täyttyy ja hidastuu
Nyky Windowseissa _ainoastaan_ HKLM\SOFTWARE\Classes
(eli mm. COM-serverit, OLE, ContextMenu) hidastaa Windowsia pysyvästi, koska tämä haara rekisteristä on pysyvästi RAM-muistissa.
Mutta suurin osa käytetyistä installereista sandboxittaa asennusvaiheen rekisterin read/write tapahtumat ja kirjaa ne logiin, joten nuokin tulee poistettua Uninstall-eventin yhteydessä.
>> Rekisteri on täysin käsittämätön paikka kenelle vain, eikä sieltä voi
>> mennä noin vain poistelemaan isoja kasoja tietoa.
Kyllä sieltä voi poistella tietoja, jos jaksaa vaan hieman paneutua MSDN dokumentaatioon.
Tässä hyvä aloituspiste oppimiselle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_registry
Itsellä ei ole koskaan ollut ongelmia rekisterin kanssa. Harvoin joutuu tekemään manuaalista hienosäätöä, koska Windows Installer ja COM-yhteensopivat installerit kuten InstallShield osaavat siivota jälkensä erittäin tehokkaasti.
Ja kukaan ei pakota asentamaan ohjelmia, jotka eivät käytä logittavaa tai sandboxitettua installeria.
>> B) SYSTEM/SYSTEM32 täytyy ja hidastaa konetta, usein myös täyttää
>> koko C-aseman
Tee Power User account, ja rajoita ko. accountin käyttöoikeudet Read Only base-systemiin, eli C:\WINDOWS | C:\WINNT kansiohin ja niihin alaisiin kansioihin ja tiedostoihin. Access Control Listeillä saa ihmeitä aikaan, usko pois.
Sitten asennat ko. accountilla sen softan, minkä epäilet tekevän tuhojaan. Jos se tunkee sontaa base-systemin alle, niin tulee virhe koska softalla ei ole oikeutta moiseen operaatioon. Ja asennus keskeytyy, huonosti kyhätty softa ei päässyt sotkemaan mitään ja kaikki on hyvin.
Ohjelmilla ei ole enää nykyään MITÄÄ SYYTÄ sijoittaa tiedostojaan base-system folderiin. Rekisterissä on omat standardinsa, miten
- rekisteröidään OLE-serveri tai shell-handleri tiedostopäätteille tai eri content-type olioille.
- jaetaan tiedosto useammalle suoritettavalle ohjelmalle (shared DLL tms)
Lisää tietoa: http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms724182.aspx
>> ( GNU/Linux aiheena )
>> Rekisteriä ei ole lainkaan; ei siis ole mitään, mitä täyttyä.
Juu ei ole rekisteriä, mutta on erinäinen määrä _suoraan_ /etc:n alle ripoteltuja tiedostoja, joiden tarkka sijainti, syntaksi ja dokumentaation laatu vaihtelee täysin softan/distron mukaan.
Tekstitiedostoissa ei ole sikäli mitään pahaa, mutta itse arvostan enemmän tarkasti tyypitettyä ja hierarkista tietojen tallentamismallia. Jos järjestelmä määrittelee tarkan rajapinnan millä jokainen ohjelma saa tallentaa tietoja, on tietojen jakaminen muiden ohjelmien/järjestelmän kanssa yhtenäisen rajapinnan avulla helppoa.
Esimerkkeinä esim. GConf tai Elektra Initiative, joita molempia fleimataan OSS-fanaatikkojen toimesta …
Olen itsekkin suunnittelemassa oliopohjaista rekisteriä, ja sen päälle vielä kokonaista runtime platformia eri Unix-alustoille. Tarkoituksena olisi korjata kaikki Windowsin rekisterin heikot kohdat, ja lisätä hyödyllisiä ominaisuuksia.
>> Windowsin vikapa hyvinkin. Paketinhallinta ei anna asentaa pakettia, >> jos siinä oleva ohjelma korvaisi toisen ohjelman tiedostoja.
Kyllä Windows Installer ja muutkin nykyaikaiset installerit (”paketinhallinnat”) osaa olla ylikirjoittamatta tärkeitä tiedostoja.
>> Miksi kukaan haluaisi palata takaisin typerään ja hankalaan
>> Windows-tapaan hakea jokaisen oheisohjelman päivitykset käsin?
En tarkoita, että jokainen 3rd party softa pitäisi päivittää erikseen. Tarkoitan vaan, että järjestelmän perustan päivittäminen pitäisi olla erillään sen päälle rakennettujen ohjelmistojen päivityksestä. Aivan kuten *BSD järjestelmissä on erikseen /usr (käännetään lähdekoodista, FreeBSD:ssä nykyään myös binääripätsit freebsd-update:lla) ja /usr/local (paketinhallinnan hallinnoima) hierarkiat tätä varten.
>>Windows tarvitsee nimenomaan standardisointia, koska sellainen siitä
>> puuttuu tyystin.
Windowsilla on päinvastain hemmetin hyvät ja takaisinpäin yhteensopivat standardit. Saan jopa vuoden 1998 Win 9x binääreitä (lähinnä pelejä) ajettua vielä Windows 2000:lla.
Windows tarjoaa oletuksena alemman tason Win32 rajapinnat, ja niiden päälle vielä MFC:n, COM, .NET, DirectX ja monet muut tarkasti dokumentoidu korkeamman tason rajapinnat. Näissä on jo ihan tarpeeksi komponentteja isommankin projektin rakentamiseen. Näille eväille rakennetut ohjelmat toimivat ajantasalle päivitetyissä Win2k/XP järjestelmissä heittämällä.
>> Jokainen ohjelma tekee, mitä huvittaa. Toinen ohjelma muuttaa toisen
>> asetuksia ja kirjastotiedostoja.
Oletko koskaan edes koettanut ajaa ohjelmia Limited User Accountilla? Suosittelen suurella sydämmellä.
Jos joku ohjelma ei suostu toimimaan kuin admin oikeuksilla _ja_ sotkee koneen rekisteriä ja tiedostoja, niin ei tarvitse käyttää ko. softaa.
ELI LYHYESTI:
Jos ei halua itse viritellä, niin turha asennella ohjelmia jotka eivät käytä standardia Windows Installeria tai yleisesti päteviä COM-yhteensopivia installereita kuten InstallShield.
Kannattaa käyttää ohjelmia, jotka suostuvat toimimaan Limited User Account oikeuksilla. Ihan sama semantiikka kuin GNU/Linuxeissa ei ajeta softia root-oikeuksilla.
Käyttäkää konetta Limited Userina, selatkaa www:tä Firefoxilla. Tämä on jo sinällään tarpeeksi tehokas toimenpide suurinta osaa troijalaisia vastaan.
Windows 2k/XP perusasetukset ovat oletuksena melko aivokuolleet. Mutta pienellä panostuksella ja tietotaidolla saa Windows järjestelmästä ihan turvallisen ja tehokkaan desktop ympäristön.
Windowsin haukkuminen ja soimaaminen GNU/Linux distrojen paketinhallintasoftiin vertaamalla on aivan aivokuollutta ja turhaa. Molemmissa järjestelmissä on täysin samat ongelmat, toteutustapa on vaan erilainen. Huonosti suunniteltu, admin oikeuksia vaativa, standardeja ja best-practiceja polkeva installeri tekee tuhoa Windowsissa, sehän on selvää. Mutta saman tekee hätäisesti speksattu ja/tai huonosti (tai tahallaan haitalliseksi) skriptattu paketti GNU/Linuxissa.
Ei enää jaksa jauhaa yhtä ja samaa, koska objektiivisia mielipiteitä ei GNU/Linux skenen piiristä löydy. Se on aina sitä samaa uskonnollista kiihkoa ja Windowsin solvaamista. Kaikki halutaan tehdä erilailla kuin Windowsissa, vaikka hyviä ideoita Win32 rajapinnasta löytyisikin roppakaupalla. Kaikki käyttäjät halutaan käännyttää tukemaan vain ja ainoastaan avoimen lähdekoodin ohjelmia (tai tietylle distrolle räätälöityjä lisenssisoftia), tästä pitää huolen se ettei GNU/Linux järjestelmiä edes yritetä standardoida rajapinnoiltaan _kaupallisten_ ohjelmien vaatimaksi vakaaksi alustaksi. Tämä ei ole vapautta, tämä on vain kylmän sodan lietsomista softamaailmassa.
Olen lähinnä pelaamisen ja muutamien proprietary softien (ja pelien) takia opetellut Windows alustan tehokäytön; opettelu ei vaadi muuta kuin kykyä lukea ja halua kokeilla.
GNU/Linuxin tukemisen olen miltei kokonaan lopettanut (muutamaa serveriä lukuunottamatta), koska kavahdin skenen uskonnollista fanaattisuutta. Siirryin työpöytäkäytössäkin FreeBSD:hen, ja johan helpotti.
Nyt rupeaa jo väsyttämään Windowsin puolustaminen, kun en edes käytä sitä pääasiallisesti. Yritin vain tuoda edes _hitusen_ objektiivisuutta tähän keskusteluun.
3. helmikuuta 2007 kello 21.28
” Yritin vain tuoda edes hitusen objektiivisuutta tähän keskusteluun.”
Eipä kovin objektiiviselta vaikuta. Windowsin rekisteri on jopa paikassa tuomittu täydeksi kiroukseksi, joka tekee järjestelmästä epävakaan ja hankalan hallita. En ymmärrä, miten tuollaista viritelmää voisi puolustella. Dokumentoimatonkin se on (ellei erikseen hae ja lue dokumentteja netistä, vrt. conf-tiedostot).
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 1.26
MSI ei todellakaan vastaa oikeaa paketinhallintaa. Sen avulla et voi ladata softaa keskitetyistä repoista, MSI-asennukset korvaavat usein toisiaan ja rikkovat ohjelmien toimintaa (näin kävi viimeksi eilen) sekä kukaan ei oikeasti noudata mitään standardeja sen kanssa, vaikka sellaiset olisikin luotu.
“Kyllä sieltä voi poistella tietoja, jos jaksaa vaan hieman paneutua MSDN dokumentaatioon.”
Ai niinkö? Kotihakemistostani voin poistella ohjelmien asetuksia helposti ja vaivattomasti, ihan ilman lukematta mitään dokumentaatiota. Miksi asetukset pitää tallentaa johonkin käsittämättömän kryptiseen muotoon, kun ne voi tallentaa selkokielisessä tekstimuodossakin?
“Saan jopa vuoden 1998 Win 9x binääreitä (lähinnä pelejä) ajettua vielä Windows 2000:lla.”
Tuolla ei ole mitään tekemistä standardoinnin kanssa, vaan likaisten pikku häkkien ja pätsien kanssa. Microsoft joutuu joka Windowsin myötä taistelemaan kaikenlaisia purkkavirityksiä järjestelmäkoodiin, että vanhat softat toimisivat. On kovin kaksiteräinen juttu, onko tämä hyvä asia loppupeleissä. Vista rikkoo nyt sitten joka tapauksessa binääriyhteensopivuuden usean ohjelman kanssa.
“Kannattaa käyttää ohjelmia, jotka suostuvat toimimaan Limited User Account oikeuksilla.”
Eli n. 1 % Windows-ohjelmista? Kovinpa on valikoima rajoitettua. Run As…-palvelukin toimii miten sattuu, ei todellakaan yhtä varmasti kuin Unixin su ja sudo.
“Molemmissa järjestelmissä on täysin samat ongelmat”
“Mutta saman tekee hätäisesti speksattu ja/tai huonosti (tai tahallaan haitalliseksi) skriptattu paketti GNU/Linuxissa.”
Vai niin? Miksi ainoastaan Windowsia joutuu sitten asentelemaan uusiksi sen sekoilemisen vuoksi? Linux puuskuttaa vuosikaupalla ongelmitta. Käytäntö puhuu teorioitasi vastaan. Missä sellainen paketti viipyy, joka rikkoisi Linux-järjestelmäni? Ei ole tullut vastaan 10 vuoden aikana.
“GNU/Linux järjestelmiä edes yritetä standardoida rajapinnoiltaan kaupallisten ohjelmien vaatimaksi vakaaksi alustaksi”
Toivotaan, ettei yritetäkään. Suljettua koodia ei kukaan kaipaa. Linux EI ole Windows.
“objektiivisia mielipiteitä ei GNU/Linux skenen piiristä löydy”
Eikä liioin BSD- tai Windows-puoleltakaan. Tuttuja ovat kyllä BSD-puolenkin kiihkoilut, itsekin olen aktiivinen FreeBSD-käyttäjä.
“Yritin vain tuoda edes hitusen objektiivisuutta tähän keskusteluun.”
Päinvastoin, onnistuit ainoastaan lietsomaan Microsoftin propagandaa heidän mukamas “standardeistaan”. Windows on suljettu ja kryptinen järjestelmä, jonka toiminnasta ei ota kukaan selvää. Ongelmatilanteissakin yleensä ainoa järkevä ratkaisu on koko järjestelmän uudelleenasennus.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 1.30
Arto ilmeisesti on käyttänyt vain sitä Debianin paketinhallintaa, joka on täysi susi. Eihän nyt kukaan voi tosissaan edes verrata Windows Intalleria _oikeaan_ paketinhallintaan.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 3.45
>> Windowsin rekisteri on jopa paikassa tuomittu täydeksi kiroukseksi,
>> joka tekee järjestelmästä epävakaan ja hankalan hallita.
Riippuu että minkälaisia ohjelmia käyttää. Jos käyttää ohjelmia, jotka on toimitettu kunnollisilla installereilla (esim. MSI), ja jotka on ohjelmoitu ottamaan huomioon monen käyttäjän ympäristö (HKLM ja HKCU erottelu ohjelmatasolla) niin ettei niitä tarvitse ajaa pääkäyttäjänä, toimii homma ihan hyvin.
>> En ymmärrä, miten tuollaista viritelmää voisi puolustella.
Ihan yhtä hyvin kuin joku puolustelee sitä, että on fiksua tunkea kaikki 3rd party ohjelmien tiedostot samaan paikkaan kriittisempien järjestelmätiedostojen kanssa /usr:än alle.
>> Dokumentoimatonkin se on (ellei erikseen hae ja lue dokumentteja
>> netistä, vrt. conf-tiedostot).
Rekisteri ei ole dokumentoimaton. Netistä löytyy MSDN sivustolta tarvittavat dokumentaatiot rekisteristä. Ja erittäin hyvät dokut ovat, itse olen kaikki tarvittavat toimenpiteet pystynyt niiden avulla rekisteriin suorittamaan.
Itse tavallaan puhuit itsesi pussiin, kun mainitsit dokumentit netissä. Ihan sama missä asetukset on dokumentoitu, jos osaa asiansa niin pystyy syntaksikuvauksen/kaavion pohjalta säätämään asetukset manuaalisesti.
>> MSI ei todellakaan vastaa oikeaa paketinhallintaa. Sen avulla et voi
>> ladata softaa keskitetyistä repoista
Paketinhallinnalla ei ole minun mielestä itsellään tekemistä repositoryjen. Paketinhallinta vastaa vaan ohjelmistojen asennuksesta (paketeista) ja niiden varmatoimisesta poistamisesta.
>> Ai niinkö? Kotihakemistostani voin poistella ohjelmien asetuksia helposti
>> ja vaivattomasti, ihan ilman lukematta mitään dokumentaatiota.
Joissakin softissa asetusten poisto on helpompaa, toisissa pitää käyttää enemmän harkintaa.
Windowsissakin on helppo tapa poistaa softien asetuksia. Järjestelmän laajuisille asetuksille selaat HKLM\SOFTWARE\\, ja poistat ko. avaimen. Käyttäjäkohtaiset asetukset löytyy HKCU\Software -hierarkian alta samalla logiikalla.
>> Microsoft joutuu joka Windowsin myötä taistelemaan kaikenlaisia
>> purkkavirityksiä järjestelmäkoodiin, että vanhat softat toimisivat. On
>> kovin kaksiteräinen juttu, onko tämä hyvä asia loppupeleissä.
Täytyy muistaa, että on Microsoftin rahantulon kannalta tärkeää pyrkiä pitämään binäärinen yhteensopivuus useita vuosia taaksepäin. Muuten ohjelmistojen tuottajat eivät suostuisi yhteistyöhön, ja järjestelmän suosio vähenisi.
>> Vista rikkoo nyt sitten joka tapauksessa binääriyhteensopivuuden
>> usean ohjelman kanssa.
Windows Vista on tehty loukkaamaan ihmisten yksityisyyttä ja kohottamaan hardwaren hintoja, koska DRM-ominaisuudet vaativat jopa laitteiden välisen datavirran ohjelmallista valvontaa.
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
Lyhyesti sanottuna, täyttä kusetusta. En ala leikkimään tuommoisen kanssa, ennemmin käytän nykyistä Windows 2000 Professionalia, tässä on kaikki Windowsilta vaatimani ominaisuudet tällä hetkellä.
> ”Kannattaa käyttää ohjelmia, jotka suostuvat toimimaan Limited User
> Account oikeuksilla.”
>> Eli n. 1 % Windows-ohjelmista?
Hyvin moni kaupallinen ja OpenSource Windows ohjelma toimii nykyään ilman admin oikeuksia. Jotkut joutuu asentamaan adminina, mutta toimivat myös rajoitetuilla oikeuksilla.
Tulee vaan tehdä jokaisella Limited User -käyttäjälle oma hakemisto, minne ohjelmien asentaminen ja tiedostojen suorittaminen on sallittua.
>> Vai niin? Miksi ainoastaan Windowsia joutuu sitten asentelemaan uusiksi
>> sen sekoilemisen vuoksi?
Yleensä Windowsia käyttävät ihmiset eivät vaan ole jaksaneet paneutua järjestelmäänsä sen vertaa, että osaisiva säätää filesystem ACL:ät ja eri komponenttien asetukset turvallisiksi.
>> Linux puuskuttaa vuosikaupalla ongelmitta.
Sama pätee Windows 2k/XP:hen, jos osaa laittaa perusasetukset kuntoon. Nykyisellään 3 vuotta ollut tämäkin Windows 2000 Professional asennus pystyssä. Hieman hidastumista on fragmentoitumisesta johtuen tullut, mutta Perfect Disk:illä saa nämäkin ongelmat pois. Rekisteri on säilynyt eheänä, koska en ole asennellut montaakaan huonosti suunniteltua ohjelmaa. Suurin osa käyttämistäni hyöty/työkalu ohjelmista toimii normaalikäyttäjän oikeuksilla.
>> Toivotaan, ettei yritetäkään. Suljettua koodia ei kukaan kaipaa. Linux
>> EI ole Windows.
Ja tässä siis nähdään, miksi GNU/Linux on taasen hehkutuksen kohteena.
Minun mielestä OpenSourceen sitova “vapaus” ei ole aitoa vapautta. Se on vendor-lock-in. Syynä GPL, huono yhteistyö kaupallisia toimittajien kanssa, tahallinen rajapintojen uudelleenmuokkaus sensijaan että kehitettäisiin kerralla pätevä yhtenäinen rajapinta … jne jne
FreeBSD on lähinnä synteesiä eri kaupallisten tahojen ja OpenSourcen välillä. Siinä on hyvä userland puolen binäärinen yhteensopivuus (takaisinpäin), ja kernelinkin rajapinnat sopivat hyvin kaupallisille ajureille, sillä ne vaihtuvat yleensä vain major-version välein.
Windows olisi myös melko hyvä synteesi, jos Microsoft ei olisi alkanut pelleilemään aktivointien ja muiden yksityisyyssuojaa loukkaavien DRM-tekniikoiden kanssa.
>> Eikä liioin BSD- tai Windows-puoleltakaan. Tuttuja ovat kyllä
>> BSD-puolenkin kiihkoilut, itsekin olen aktiivinen FreeBSD-käyttäjä
Mulle ei ole tullu BSD-kiihkoilijoita vastaan. Yleensä BSD-käyttäjät on paljon enemmän toiminnan kuin puheen ihmisiä, ja se on vaan hyvä.
On eri BSD järjestelmissä se huono puoli, että ne kehitetään hitaammin johtuen tarkemmasta ja keskitetymmästä lähdekoodin kontrollista. Mutta minun mielestä tämä on vaan hyvä, pysyvätpähän rajapinnat samoina vuodesta toiseen. Ja kuitenkin tehokkuus ja turvallisuus paranee kokoajan.
Itselle kun tuo laaja laitetukikaan ei ole mikään pakottava tarve.
Nojoo en jatka tästä BSD aiheesta enää, netistä löytyy miljoona sivua tätä samaa jargonia …
>> Päinvastoin, onnistuit ainoastaan lietsomaan Microsoftin propagandaa
>> heidän mukamas ”standardeistaan”. Windows on suljettu ja kryptinen
>> järjestelmä, jonka toiminnasta ei ota kukaan selvää.
Tarvii vain tietää ne kohdat järjestelmästä, jotka on dokumentoitu. Ne määrittelevät Windowsin mahdollisuudet kokonaisuudessaan, Microsoftin ja sen yhteistyökumppanien kehittelemien standardien mukaan. Niiden avulla selviää tilanteesta kuin tilanteesta. Ja MSDN dokumentaatio on huomattavan laaja ja ilmainen.
Olen aika varma, että tapaukset joissa joku “dokumentoimaton ominaisuus” olisi aiheuttanut kalliita vahinkoja, ovat aika vähissä.
>> Ongelmatilanteissakin yleensä ainoa järkevä ratkaisu on koko
>> järjestelmän uudelleenasennus.
Ongelmatilanteita ei tule, jos käyttää ehjää laitteistoa, ja säätää Windowsin perusasetukset kuntoon. Osaaminen on tässäkin valttia.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.36
Arto Pekkanen:
“Jos käyttää ohjelmia, jotka on toimitettu kunnollisilla installereilla”
Öhm… täytyy kyllä tähän väliin todeta, että tuollaisia ohjelmia ei ole Windows-puolella varmaan lainkaan. Linux-puolella paketinhallinta on poikaa. Kaikkein ärsyttävimpiä ovat MSI-asennuspaketit. Eivät toimi juuri koskaan. Repot ovat myös oleellinen asia ohjelmistoasennuksien kannalta. Niiden puuttuminen Windows-puolelta tekee Windowsista yksinkertaisesti huonomman. Keskitetty paketinhallinta tarvittaisiin Windowsiinkin, että voisin yhdellä komennolla vilkaista, mihin tuo ja tuokin tiedosto taas kuuluu. Mutta ei… Windowsissa erilaisia asennusohjelmia on tuhansia erilaisia. Hallitsematon sekasotku.
“Ihan yhtä hyvin kuin joku puolustelee sitä, että on fiksua tunkea kaikki 3rd party ohjelmien tiedostot samaan paikkaan kriittisempien järjestelmätiedostojen kanssa /usr:än alle.”
Tuohan on erittäin hyvä puoli Linuxista. Kaikki ohjelmat käynnistyvät yksinkertaisella komennolla, esimerkiksi pelkkä “kwrite”.
“Rekisteri ei ole dokumentoimaton.”
Rekisteri on suurimmalle osalle käyttäjistä täysi mysteeri. Epämääräinen tapa tallentaa asetuksia, kun ne voitaisiin tallentaa selvään tekstimuotoonkin. On yleistä tietoa, että rekisterin moni osa on täysi dokumentoimaton, samoin kuin iso osa Win32:n API-rajapinnoista. Näitähän haittaohjelmakoodarit ovat hyödyntäneet viime aikoinakin, juuri niitä dokumentoimattomia osia.
“Hyvin moni kaupallinen ja OpenSource Windows ohjelma toimii nykyään ilman admin oikeuksia.”
Korjaisin tuota, että hyvin _harva_. Varsinkin peleistä vain murto-osa toimii rajoitetulla käyttäjällä, edes aivan uusimmista.
“Järjestelmän laajuisille asetuksille selaat HKLMSOFTWARE\, ja poistat ko. avaimen.”
Tuttua puuhaa, mutta valitettavasti tuohan ei sinällään auta. Ohjelmat täyttävät rekisteriä mistä huvittavat ja uudelleenasennus on taas pian edessä.
“Nykyisellään 3 vuotta ollut tämäkin Windows 2000 Professional asennus pystyssä.”
Niin minullakin yksi kone… johon ei asennettu yhtään softaa tai päivitystä kolmeen vuoteen. Sitten asennettiin jokin tietoturvapäivitys Windows Updatesta – ja järjestelmä hajosi. Ei kun uudelleenasennusta kehiin.
“Ja MSDN dokumentaatio on huomattavan laaja ja ilmainen.”
Mutta Windows on suljettu, eikä ilmainen. Ketä edes kiinnostaa opetella suljetun, kaupallisen järjestelmän epämääräisiä rajapintoja? Samoin Windows-puolelta opitut asiat eivät auta lainkaan *nix-puolella.
“Ongelmatilanteita ei tule, jos käyttää ehjää laitteistoa”
Tuosta tuli mieleen, miten monta kertaa Windows-PC:ssä on ollut viallista keskusmuistia, eikä Windows ole siitä mitenkään ilmoittanut. Joko koko käyttis on yhtäkkiä lakannut käynnistymästä tai kovalevyltä on löytynyt jälkikäteen korruptoituneita tiedostoja. Linux on näissä samaisissa koneissa alkanut samantien herjaamaan “segment faultia”, yms. ja tämä on johtanut muistitesterin ajamiseen. Taitaa Windowsin muistinhallinta olla melkoisen tehoton, koska viallisia kohtia muisteista ei ole ilmeisesti edes yrittänyt hyödyntää (tuoden vian näin esiin).
—–
Vaikka menetkin metsään todella pahasti, oikeassa olet kuitenkin argumenteissasi BSD:stä ja siitä, että Linuxia kehittävät tahot eivät hyvällä katso suljettua koodia. Muistuu mieleeni taannoinen PWC-ajuri, jossa kernelistä poistettiin suljetun koodin moduulin siihen liittämisen mahdollistava palikka. Tämä on kuitenkin mielestäni täysin oikein. Jos haluaa käyttää avoimen koodin järjestelmää, silloin kaikki saa luvan olla avointa. Muuten saa pysyä siellä Windowsin tai Mäkin puolella.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.46
Olisi kiva saada repositoryt ja paketinhallinta windowsiinkin. Linux on kyllä niin paljon teknisesti edellä. Saakohan microsoft tätä eroa koskaan kiinni.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 15.30
“Yleensä BSD-käyttäjät on paljon enemmän toiminnan kuin puheen ihmisiä, ja se on vaan hyvä.”
Et näytä sinä ainakaan olevan. =)
Valitat Linuxissa olevan huonoja puoli mutta et korjaa niitä. Että mitenkäs se olikaan? =)
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 18.59
windowsiin kun asentaa pari peliä se yleensä jo sekoo
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 20.28
MSI:n vertailu _oikeaan_ paketinhallintaan on kyllä suorastaan pyhäinhäväistys. MSI on esimerkki siitä, miten “paketinhallinnan” _ei_ tulisi toimia. Kesken kaiken koneen käytön ruudulle pomppii jotain kyselyitä, että MSI haluaa asentaa jotain. Tai kun yrität käynnistää jotain jo asennettua ohjelmaa. Paketinhallinnan tulee toimia ainoastaan käyttäjän käskystä, ei omin päin ja haitata näin merkittävästi koneen käyttöä. MSI on lähtökohdiltaan jo niin täydellisen väärin suunniteltu systeemi, että täytyy ihmetellä, mitä siellä Microsoftin koodereitten päässä on oikein liikkunut (jos mitään). Useimmiten sen tietokannat myös korruptoituvat, mikä johtaa pahimmillaan koko Windowsin uudelleenasennukseen. Graafiset asennusohjelmat ärsyttävät myös ideana minua suunnattomasti. Next-Next-hommia ärsyttävämpää asiaa en tiedäkään.
MSI ei myöskään selvästi kerro, mitä tiedostoja ja minne on asennettu. Linuxissa esimerkiksi “rpm -ql pakettinimi” listaa tiedostot. Lisäksi ne jo mainitut repot puuttuvat. Sekä ihan yksinkertaisesti se fakta, että MSI-asennuksia käyttää vain murto-osa ohjelmista, eli vaikka sen ongelmat korjattaisiin, ei sitä kuitenkaan käyttäisi kukaan ja ohjelmien asennukset ovat tuhansien epämääräisten installereiden varassa. Uninstall poistaa osan asennetuista tiedostoista ja rekisterimerkinnöistä – jos poistaa. Ja Windows täyttyy. Pian ollaan taas uudelleenasentamassa tai palauttamassa imagea.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 20.29
>> Windowsissa erilaisia asennusohjelmia on tuhansia erilaisia.
>> Hallitsematon sekasotku.
Ei niitä asennusohjelmia ole tuhansia erilaisia. Suurin osa installereista on nykyään yhteensopivia Windows Installerin ja COM rajapinnan kanssa, jolloin ne todellakin siivoavat jälkensä kun ohjelman poistaa.
>> Rekisteri on suurimmalle osalle käyttäjistä täysi mysteeri.
No se on käyttäjien vika, kun eivät vaan osaa. Ei se ole Windowsin vika.
>> Epämääräinen tapa tallentaa asetuksia, kun ne voitaisiin tallentaa
>> selvään tekstimuotoonkin.
Rekisteri on päinvastoin koherentti tapa tallentaa asetukset hierarkisesti ja tyypitetysti. Asetusten lukeminen/kirjoittaminen on yksinkertaista sekä ihmisille että ohjelmistoille.
Voisi argumentoida, että on täysin makuasia pitääkö tekstimuotoisesta monien eri syntaksien konffeista, vai tyypitetystä rekisteristä.
>> On yleistä tietoa, että rekisterin moni osa on täysi dokumentoimaton,
>> samoin kuin iso osa Win32:n API-rajapinnoista.
Väitän, ettei tuolla ole väliä. Sillä ne dokumentoidut osat sisältää tarpeeksi toiminnallisuutta minkä tahansa ohjelman vaatimuksiin.
>> Näitähän haittaohjelmakoodarit ovat hyödyntäneet viime aikoinakin,
>> juuri niitä dokumentoimattomia osia.
Ja ovat jopa niin tyhmiä, että käyttävät ohjelmia, jotka eivät ole maineeltaa luotettavia? Ja niin tyhmiä, että ajavat ohjelmansa admin oikeuksilla. Tämä on tietysti Microsoftin ja Windowsin vika?
Huomauttaisin vielä, että paikallisia tietoturva-aukkoja on jokaisessa käyttöjärjestelmässä. Siksi paikallisen ohjelman täytyy aina olla luotettava.
OpenSource ohjelmat ovat luotettavia, koska niistä on lähdekoodi saatavilla. Windowsissa suljetun koodin softien kanssa tulee vaan olla varovaisempi, koska Windows on erityisesti suosionsa takia kräkkereiden ja virustehtailijoiden kohteena.
> (rajoitetuilla käyttöoikeuksilla toimivat ohjelmat)
>> Korjaisin tuota, että hyvin harva. Varsinkin peleistä vain murto-osa
>> toimii rajoitetulla käyttäjällä, edes aivan uusimmista.
Ihan sama toimiiko rajoitetulla käyttätunnuksella vai ei, tärkeää onkin että rekisteri tarjoaa mahdollisuuden moiseen, mutta se on ohjelman vika jos se ei osaa käyttää tätä hyödykseen.
>> Ketä edes kiinnostaa opetella suljetun, kaupallisen järjestelmän
>> epämääräisiä rajapintoja?
Minua ainakin. Windows on paljon monipuolisempi järjestelmä, kuin miltä se pintapuolin näyttää. Siinä tulee mukana tarpeeksi ominaisuuksia joka lähtöön, varsinkin kun otetaan sille tehdyt OpenSource ohjelmat mukaan laskentaan. Windowsin perusjärjestelmän työkalut ovat oikeasti laajoja ja sisältävät suurimman osan tehokäytössäkin tarvittavista ominaisuuksista, vaatii vaan aikaa ja vaivaa opetella nämä ominaisuudet MSDN:stä ja googlesta.
Jotkut opiskelevat Windowsin tehokäytön pakon takia. Itse opiskelen tätä, koska sattuu kiinnostamaan. Käytän Windowsia lähinnä pelikäytössä, joten ei olisi mikään harmi vaikka kosauttausin omilla viritelmilläni järjestelmäni. Tosin tällaista ei ole sattunut, koska MSDN:ssä mainitaan erittäin selkeästi asiat joita ei admin-oikeuksilla saa mennä tekemään
>> Tuttua puuhaa, mutta valitettavasti tuohan ei sinällään auta. Ohjelmat
>> täyttävät rekisteriä mistä huvittavat ja uudelleenasennus on taas pian
>> edessä.
Eivät ne kunnon ohjelmat spämmää rekisteriä. Jos epäilee haitallista ohjelmaa, ajaa sen limited userina jolloin se pääsee käsiksi ainoastaan HKEY_LOCAL_USER hierarkiaan, mikä ei sinällään hidasta tietokonetta, eikä haittaa muuta kuin ko. käyttäjää.
Sama ongelma on teoriassa myös Unix tyyppisissä järjestelmissä. Mikään ei estä haitallista ohjelmaa sotkemasta käyttäjän kotihakemistoa, ja ainoastaan quotat estää normaalikäyttäjän ajamaa softaa spämmäämästä /tmp osiota/hakemistoa täyteen.
Pata kattilaa soimaa … lopulta se on käyttäjän itsensä osaamisesta kiinni, kuinka hyvin järjestelmä toimii.
>> Tuosta tuli mieleen, miten monta kertaa Windows-PC:ssä on ollut
>> viallista keskusmuistia, eikä Windows ole siitä mitenkään ilmoittanut.
Huvittavaa, sillä minun asentamat Windows 2000 järjestelmät on aina kaatuillu usein jos viallista laitteistoa on ollut. Täten sitten tietää, että voi etsiä vikaa.
>> Jos haluaa käyttää avoimen koodin järjestelmää, silloin kaikki saa
>> luvan olla avointa. Muuten saa pysyä siellä Windowsin tai Mäkin
>> puolella.
Minun mielestäni tällainen on taasen samanlaista vapauden rajoittamista kuin mitä DRM on suljetun koodin systeemeissä. Metsään mennään itse kullakin puolella.
Ja tuo lause kyllä antaa uuden puolen tähän väittelyyn. Kenties ei olekkaan kyse siitä, mikä järjestelmä on teknisesti pätevämpi. Kyse on vaan siitä, että OpenSource pohjaisissa järjestelmissä asiat toteutetaan eri tavalla kuin Proprietary järjestelmissä, ja nämä kaksi tapaa ovat hyvin pitkälti toisensa poissulkevat.
Itse valitsisin synteesin OpenSourcen ja Properietaryn väliltä, mutta ainakaan GNU/Linux järjestelmät eivät tällaista tarjoa.
>> Olisi kiva saada repositoryt ja paketinhallinta windowsiinkin. Linux on
>> kyllä niin paljon teknisesti edellä. Saakohan microsoft tätä eroa
>> koskaan kiinni.
Microsoftilla on oma “repository” järjestelmän ja sen omien ohjelmien (Office jne) päivitystä varten. Sen nimi on Windows Update. Toimii erittäin hyvin, itsellä ei ollut kuin muutama ongelmatapaus sen kanssa. Suosittelen avoimesti käyttämään Windows Updatea, se ei oikeasti ole niin huono kuin miksi sitä väitetään.
Ja monet 3rd party softatkin (mm. Mozilla Firefox, maailman paras selain), päivittävät itsensä automaattisesti omista repositoryistään. Tämä on mahdollista nimenomaan siksi, koska Windowsin rajapinta on binäärisesti vakaa, jolloin 3rd party kehittäjät voivat pitää omaa Windows-repositorya softilleen. Testaa yhdessä järjestelmässä, ja se toimii kaikkialla muuallakin.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 22.18
“Suurin osa installereista on nykyään yhteensopivia Windows Installerin ja COM rajapinnan kanssa, jolloin ne todellakin siivoavat jälkensä kun ohjelman poistaa.”
Eivät todellakaan siivoa. Itse joudun puolivuosittain asentamaan Windowsin uusiksi.
“Asetusten lukeminen/kirjoittaminen on yksinkertaista sekä ihmisille että ohjelmistoille.”
Rekisterin lukeminen on hankalaa sekä ihmisille, että ohjelmille. Tarvitaan epämääräisiä Win32 API-kutsuja ohjelmasta käsin ja ihmiselle taas puolestaan vaaditaan regedit-ohjelma, tavallinen editori (esim. vi) ei käy.
“Ja niin tyhmiä, että ajavat ohjelmansa admin oikeuksilla. Tämä on tietysti Microsoftin ja Windowsin vika?”
Windows oli alunperin yhden käyttäjän järjestelmäksi suunniteltu ja kasvukivut tästä ovat olleet suunnattomat. Ohjelmat ja varsinkin pelit vaativat edelleen käytännössä lähes aina admin-oikeuksilla ajamista. Kyllä, Windowsin vika. Huono järjestelmäsuunnittelu heti alkuunsa.
“Windows on paljon monipuolisempi järjestelmä, kuin miltä se pintapuolin näyttää.”
Windows pitää käyttäjää idioottina ja tekee asioita, joita käyttäjä ei halua, milloin sitä itseään huvittaa.
“Eivät ne kunnon ohjelmat spämmää rekisteriä.”
“Sama ongelma on teoriassa myös Unix tyyppisissä järjestelmissä.”
Windowsissa ohjelmat on totuttu imuroimaan milloin mistäkin ja “kunnon ohjelmia” ei juurikaan siis ole. Unix-puolella en ole koskaan nähnyt ohjelman täyttävän kotihakemistoa, jne. Tosin se ei olisi suuri ongelma vaikka niin tekisikin. Helppo korjata. Rekisteriä ei voi itse korjata.
“Microsoftilla on oma ”repository” järjestelmän ja sen omien ohjelmien (Office jne) päivitystä varten. Sen nimi on Windows Update. Toimii erittäin hyvin, itsellä ei ollut kuin muutama ongelmatapaus sen kanssa.”
Jaa että repo.
ActiveX-pohjainen, IE-hirvityksellä toimiva roskakasa, joka ei suurimmasta osasta aikaa toimi. Päivitykset rikkovat järjestelmän, niin että se ei enää boottaa. Kaikki tämä tuttua touhua. Eikä Windows Update päivitä oheisohjelmia (jotain Officea lukuunottamatta).
“Ja monet 3rd party softatkin (mm. Mozilla Firefox, maailman paras selain), päivittävät itsensä automaattisesti omista repositoryistään.”
Paluu kivikaudelle. Tuo ei ole keskitettyä paketinhallintaa, vaan sekavaa toimintaa. Milloin mikäkin ohjelma ei ole ajantasalla. En voi Windowsiani päivittää oheisohjelmineen yhdelle ainoalla komennolla, kuten esim. “smart upgrade –update” Linuxissa distrosta riippumatta.
“Windowsin rajapinta on binäärisesti vakaa”
Lähes putosin tuolilta naurun takia.
BSOD on arkipäivää työpaikallakin XP:n kanssa.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 22.22
Arto: Teoriasi ovat ihan mielenkiintoisia mutta käytännössä ne eivät pidä paikkaansa lainkaan. =) Windows sekoaa muutamassa kuukaudessa vaikka sitä käyttäisi miten. Pari ohjelma-asennusta ja taas ollaan uudelleenasennustilanteessa. Linuxilla ei ole tätä käynyt vaikka asennan siihen paljon enemmän ohjelmia.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 22.38
Täälläkin menee wintoosa asennettavaksi parisen kertaa vuodessa. Eipä tuota voi välttää. Surkea järjestelmä.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 23.29
Näihin kaikkiin yhteensä voisi vastata, että minulla ei ole ollut ongelmia omien Windows desktop/server asennuksien kanssa. Päivityskin onnistuu aina, eikä järjestelmää tarvitse käynnistellä uusiksi vaikka monet oheisohjelmat näin sanoisikin.
Toisaalta, olenkin ottanut selvää miten se Windows pintaa syvemmältä toimii. Monissa Windows versioissa on oletuksena aivokuolleet perusasetukset, mutta osaava henkilö saa järjestelmän todella vakaaksi ja turvalliseksi. Väitänpä, että suurin osa Windows ongelmista johtuu epäpätevästä tietokoneen käyttäjästä tai verkon ylläpitäjästä.
Jyväskylän yliopistolla ja Kauppaoppilaitoksessa olevat Windows-pohjaiset verkot ja niiden päätekoneet toimivat yleensä hyvin, molemmissa paikoissa olen opiskellut eikä ole ollut valittamista. Näissä paikoissa adminit osaavat hommansa, tietävät järjestelmien toiminnan pintaa syvemmältä, ja ovat osanneet konfiguroida järjestelmät niin että ne eivät petä.
4. helmikuuta 2007 kello 23.54
“Näihin kaikkiin yhteensä voisi vastata, että minulla ei ole ollut ongelmia omien Windows desktop/server asennuksien kanssa.”
Sitten oletkin ainoa.
Windows on todella sekava järjestelmä. Se paketinhallinta auttaisi huomattavasti asiaa, jos sellainen siinä olisi.
5. helmikuuta 2007 kello 0.17
Jep. Meidänkin kauppiksessa Windows-koneet olivat jatkuvasti aivan sekaisin. Ei niitä näyttänyt olevan vaikea sekoittaa kaikista rajoituksista huolimatta. Lisäksi oppilaat veivät Windowsin SAM-tiedoston mukanaan ja mursivat sen kotikoneella, saaden Järjestelmänvalvojan salasanan selville joka kerta kun se oli vaihdettu. Taas oli hauskaa sekoittaa koneet vieläkin tehokkaammin kuin ilman noita tunnuksia olisi onnistunut. Windows NT4, 2000 ja XP oli siis koneissa. Aika helppo se Windows näyttää olevan murtaa, siis noin niin kun salasanojen selvittämisen kanssa.
Ja Windows Messenger-viestien lähettäminen koko domainille oli tietenkin ihan vakiohupia. Koneet olivat järjestyksessä IP-osoitteiden mukaan luokissa ja PC-piipperit kaikissa käytössä. Voitte kuvitella sitä meteliä kun ympäri koulua yli 200 tietokonetta piippaa järjestyksessä viestien pompatessa ruudulle. =) Lähettämiseen käytettiin tietenkin etäkäyttöohjelmaa että joku pahaa aavistamaton sai syyt niskoilleen. Viestissähän näkyy lähettävä kone.
Windows on varmaan surkein valinta oppilaitoksen koneisiin. Olisihan se nyt helpompaa laittaa pari keskitettyä X-palvelinta pystyyn ja thin client-koneet ilman kovoja. Mutta ei. Laitetaan pari sataa konetta omilla kovoilla ja järjestelmillä. Mieletön työ ylläpitää. Äly hoi. Ja ne kaikki virukset mitkä siellä koulujen verkoissa leviää. Virustutkat eivät pysy ajan tasalla riittävän nopeasti. Ei ainakaan FSecure. Eihän tuota Windowsia kai alun perin suunniteltu verkkokäyttöön. Ja huono se siihen tarkoitukseen onkin.
5. helmikuuta 2007 kello 0.27
Arto mainitsi oppilaitokset. Windows on onneton järjestelmä isoissa verkoissa. Keskitetty ylläpito ei vain onnistu kunnolla. Niinhän sieltä Ciscoltakin eräs ammattilainen totesi, että sama ylläpitäjä voi ylläpitää peräti 50 – 100 Linux-työasemaa, mutta vain 5 – 10 Windows-työasemaa. Veikkaan sieltä asiantuntemusta ja kokemusta löytyvän. En kyllä näe mitään ideaa edes käyttää ns. “fat client”-tyylisiä verkkoja, koska varsinkin oppilaitoksissa ns. “tyhmät päätteet” olisivat huomattavasti helpompi ratkaisu. Windowsin kanssa näissä tulisi eteen Terminal Services-lisenssihelvetti, mutta GPL:n (Linuxin) kanssa ei lisensseistä tarvitse murehtia.
5. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.23
On tuo Windows kyllä jotenkin niin täydellisen surkea järjestelmä. Työpaikalla on Windows/BSD/Linux/SunOS/Mac koneita ja Windows on aina se ainoa mikä sekoilee.
Joka aamu kun työt aloitetaan, Windows koneet yön päälläolon jälkeen (päivitykset, yms. yön aikana) hidastelevat ja system idle processes on 100 % CPU-aikaa käytössä. Koneet on pakko käynnistää uudestaan, mikä vie aikaa, tai niitä ei voi käyttää. Ja kun jokin ohjelma jää zombiksi,
Windows on ainut mikä ei osaa napata prosessilta CPU-aikaa ja muistiresursseja pois. Task manager paljastaa prosessin edelleen omaavan täydet järjestelmäresurssit ja kone hidastelee sen mallisesti, ennen kuin koko tietokone on käynnistetty uudelleen.
Ja joka kerta kun tulee päivityksiä, tarvitsee Windows käynnistää uudelleen myös. Sitten on rekisterin korruptoitumiset ja levyn fragmentoituminen. Taas työnteko vaikeutuu. Joskus myös iskee blue screenin, tosin se on harvinaisempaa kuin nämä kaikki muut ongelmat.
Mitään näistä ongelmista ei ole BSD/Linux/SunOS/Mac järjestelmillä. Työntekijätkin oikein kehuvat, kuinka nuo unix koneet voivat olla päällä satoja päiviä yhteenmenoon ilman ongelmia. Windowsin kanssa ennätys on 1 tai 2 päivää. Ei se ehkä täysin kaadu blue screeniin tuon jälkeen, mutta yhtälailla se täytyy bootata zombi prosessin takia tai yön päälläolon jälkeisen hidastelun vuoksi. Eli sama asia kuin kaatuminen, käytännössä. Kun viimeinen Windows-only ohjelma pian saadaan pois ja vaihdetaan web-pohjaiseen sovellukseen, vaihtuvat loputkin Windows työasemat pois ja äkkiä.
6. helmikuuta 2007 kello 20.30
Kylläpäs tämä Linux-paneeli on herättänyt tunteita.
Muutama kommentti on täällä esitettyihin argumentteihin paikallaan.
_Pakettienhallinnasta_: Linuxin pakettienhallinta toimii hyvin silloin kun kone on kiinni Internetissä (kaikki koneet eivät ole!) ja asennettavat softat ovat tunnetuimpia. Kaikki softat eivät kuitenkaan mitenkään voi kuulua näihin keskitettyihin hyvämaineisiin repositoryihin. Malliesimerkkinä tästä jo muutamaan otteeseen mainittu Libdvdcss, jota ei jostain syystä saada mitenkään laill^h^h^h… siis järkevästi jakelupaketteihin mukaan.
Jos koneellaan haluaa tehdä jotain mielenkiintoista, on kolmansien lähteiden lisääminen pakettienhallinnan lähteistöön vähän pakko.
Ja annas olla jos sen puolalaisen opiskelijaboksin palvelin ei futaa, niin ihmeissään ollaan. Itse törmäsin viimeksi tähän, kun yritin päivittää MythTV:n moduuleja Debian Unstableen. Mythdvd, mythmusic, mythnews, mythvideo ja muut kaverit jumittuivat aptituden virheisiin. “mythbrowser depends on libqt3c102-mt (>= 3:3.3.4)”, “mythmusic depends on libflac6 UNAVAILABLE]”, “mythmusic depends on libqt3c102-mt (>= 3:3.3.4)” jne. Olisi ehkä tosin pitänyt tajuta, että apt-paketit osoitteessa http://dijkstra.csh.rit.edu/~mdz/debian ovat liian vanhoja.
Tosin eivät isojen jakeluiden pakettienhallinnat täysin synnittömiä ole. Viimeksi Fedora Corea päivitettäessä tuli jäätyä useaan kertaan jumiin kun kaikkia paketteja ei vaan saatu ladattua ilman useita uudelleenyrityksiä.
Totuuden nimissä on kuitenkin sanottava, että Linuxien pakettienhallinnassa on ideaa ja tämä ominaisuus voisi olla aiheellista tuoda myös Windowsiinkin. Mutta samassa hengenvedossa on kyllä sanottava, että nämä .msi-paketteihin perustuvat Windows-ohjelmien vakioasennuspaketit ajavat asiansa varsin hyvin käytännössä. (Next-Next -allergikoille voisi suositella tutustumaan komennon msiexec /? ulosantiin). Väitteet Windowsin pakkoasennuksista muutamien kuukausien välein ovat vähintäänkin liioittelua.
Kukaan ei muuten ole täällä huomannut kertoa, että Linuxien pakettienhallinnassa on myös ongelmia. Likipitäen joka toinen distro tarvitee omat pakettienhallintasysteeminsä ja ovatko nämä yhteensopivia jakeluiden välillä? Heh heh.
_Betaversioista_: Unix-maailmassa softat ovat liki järjestään versiota 0.xx. Jopa useiden vuosien ajan. On jotenkin kaksinaismoralistista sanoa, jotta ominaisuudet X, Y ja Z kyllä käyvät ja kukkuvat näiden 0.x tai betaversioiden perusteella ja seuraavassa virkkeessä todeta ongelmiin joutuneelle “mitäs käytit unstablea”.
_LinDVD:stä_: On lähinnä akateemista brassailua väittää “juujuu, saa Linuxille taatusti oikeasti ja luvallisesti lisensoidun DVD-soittimen” jos tosiasia on, että ilmeisesti ainoan tällaisen saa Mandriva-jakeluun. Tämä ei lämmitä (K)Ubuntu-käyttäjää hirveästi ja on malliesimerkki “Väärä distro!” -asenteesta.
Odotan muuten edelleen sitä linkkiä taatusti lailliseen BluRay/HD-DVD -levyjen soitinohjelmaan.
Terveisin,
- Ossi
6. helmikuuta 2007 kello 23.51
(”Jos koneellaan haluaa tehdä jotain mielenkiintoista, on kolmansien lähteiden lisääminen pakettienhallinnan lähteistöön vähän pakko.”)
Hmm… eipä minulla ole kolmansien osapuolien lähteitä asennettu paketinhallintaan. libdvdcss-paketti haettu erillisenä RPM:nä.
(”Viimeksi Fedora Corea päivitettäessä tuli jäätyä useaan kertaan jumiin kun kaikkia paketteja ei vaan saatu ladattua ilman useita uudelleenyrityksiä.”
Mirror-servereitä on ollut varmaan internetin keksimisestä lähtien.
(”Next-Next -allergikoille voisi suositella tutustumaan komennon msiexec /? ulosantiin”
Windowsin komentokehoite on kankea ja hirveä käyttää.
(”Väitteet Windowsin pakkoasennuksista muutamien kuukausien välein ovat vähintäänkin liioittelua.”)
En sanoisi ihan suoraan noinkaan. Kun katselee kaverini XP-koneen käyttöä…
(”Likipitäen joka toinen distro tarvitee omat pakettienhallintasysteeminsä ja ovatko nämä yhteensopivia jakeluiden välillä?”)
Väärin. Etkö ole kuullut kaikki pakettimuodot ja distrot hallitsevasta Smartista?
(”Unix-maailmassa softat ovat liki järjestään versiota 0.xx. Jopa useiden vuosien ajan.”)
Täyttä valetta. Uusimmat softat kiinnittävät eniten huomiota ja tämä saa kaikki kokeilemaan niitä. Niinpä moni sitten käyttää niitä juuri ensimmäiseen versioonsa päässeitä uusia ohjelmia. Toisaalta jotkin ohjelmat ovat pitkäänkin 0.xx-vaiheessa ja tämä kertoo siitä, että tekijä haluaa varmistaa ohjelman toimivan 100 % kaikilla, ennen kuin antaa sille “stable”-statuksen. Tämä ei voi olla huono asia. Katsokaa nyt vaikka Microsoftin bugisia softia, joita kutsutaan “valmiiksi tuotteiksi”.
(”LinDVD:stä”)
Eiköhän tuosta asiasta jo jauhettu aivan tarpeeksi? LinDVD:n saat aivan yhtä lailla siihen (K)Ubuntuunkin. Lisenssin voit ostaa ostamalla Mandrivan jonkin pakettiversion (halvin n. 20 – 30 euroa). Jos et löydä ohjelmapakettia netistä, siitä Mandrivan DVD:ltä voit asentaa sen myös muihin distroihin (Debian-pohjaiset alienilla asennus).
(”Odotan muuten edelleen sitä linkkiä taatusti lailliseen BluRay/HD-DVD -levyjen soitinohjelmaan.”)
Ja minä odotan formaattisodan päättymistä ja ihan oikeaa tarvetta moiselle. LinDVD:hen tuki ollaan tekemässä ja se riittää minulle, koska uudessa tekniikassa on vielä niin paljon ongelmia, ettei siihen kelkkaan kannata hypätä. Nuo asematkin maksanevat vielä tuhannen euroa tietokoneeseen. Olisi harvinaisen typerää mennä sellaista ostamaan tässä vaiheessa.
Vaikka en halua lietsoa mitään “väärä distro”-asennetta, niin täytyy kuitenkin muistuttaa, ettei (K)Ubuntu ole aloittelijalle sopiva distro. Se on Debian-pohjainen, hankalahko ja aloittelijalle monimutkainen jakelu. Ei siis väärä distro, vaan ei aloittelijalle paras vaihtoehto.
6. helmikuuta 2007 kello 23.59
Ossi, muistetaanhan nyt kuitenkin, ettei Linux ole käyttöjärjestelmä vaan kernel.
SuSE on käyttöjärjestelmä.
Ubuntu on käyttöjärjestelmä.
- aivan kuten -
Windows on käyttöjärjestelmä.
Mac OS X on käyttöjärjestelmä.
Ei eri käyttöjärjestelmien tarvitse olla yhteensopivia binääritasolla. Toimivatko Mac-ohjelmat Windowsissa? No eivät todellakaan. Asia ei eroa millään tavalla GNU/Linux-jakeluiden välillä.
Eikä Linux ole Windows. Linuxista ei ole koskaan tarkoitusta tulla tavallisen tallaajan järjestelmää, eikä myöskään allekirjoittanut tätä missään nimessä halua.
http://webd.savonia-amk.fi/www/kt22440/LNW/linux_eioo_windows.html
7. helmikuuta 2007 kello 2.22
Nimim. anssi
Tuohan se nimenomaan GNU/Linux järjestelmissä ontuukin, ettei ole sitä binääristä yhteensopivuutta.
Kaupallisten, suljettujen, ohjelmistojen tekijät ei halua sovittaa (eri distroille ei yksi codebase pelkiltään aina käänny) erikseen joka ikiselle distrolle pakettia ohjelmistaan. Se on liian aikaavievää hommaa.
>> Eikä Linux ole Windows. Linuxista ei ole koskaan tarkoitusta tulla
>> tavallisen tallaajan järjestelmää, eikä myöskään allekirjoittanut tätä
>> missään nimessä halua.
Jeps, tuota minäkin toivoisin. Olisi todella ikävää, jos suurin osa vastaantulevista ihmisitä olisi raivoavia GNU/Linux-fanaatikkoja Slashdot.org bannereineen
siinä vaiheessa suonet ohtassa sykkisi …
Asensin taas vaihteeksi FreeBSD:n … virittelin KDE työpöydän Mac OS X tyyliin. Eli nyt minulla on Windows, FreeBSD ja “periaatteessa Mac OS X”, joten voin sanoa olevani erittäin objektiivinen tässä keskustelussa
7. helmikuuta 2007 kello 2.29
Ja nuo Ossi Mäntylahden postaamat esimerkit ongelmista GNU/Linuxin kanssa ovat ihan tosia. Niiden avulla voimme tehdä johtopäätöksen, että ei se käyttöjärjestelmä vaikuta siihen onko ongelmia vai ei, ATK-järjestelmät ovat monimutkaisia ja ongelmallisia jo sinällään
Itsellä ei tullu GNU/Linux ongelmista mitään yksityiskohtaista esimerkkiä mieleen, kun en oo vuosiin käyttäny niitä aktiivisesti. Yksi Debiaani tuossa on palomuurina, mutta en ole koskenut siihen sitten Woody->Sarge päivityksen …
Niin siitä GNU/Linuxit, ja myös *BSD järjestelmät, on hyviä, että ne saa vanhoilla Pentium 1:llä pyörimään ihan hyvin. Windows 2000 ei moisiin kokoonpanoihin oikein sovi.
7. helmikuuta 2007 kello 12.11
Siinäpä Ossille osoitetta DVD-toisto osoitetta:
http://www.fluendo.com/products.php
Itse en ole gsteramerin suuri fani. Xine ja mplayer tuntuvat mukavammilta. Tuosta osoitteesta sen veran, että MP3 kuuntelu laillisesti ja ilmaiseksi Linuxilla on nyt nykyisin mahdollista gstreamerilla.
7. helmikuuta 2007 kello 12.22
Sen veran että tuo ei ole vielä saatavilla.
Väärä distro hä? Jokaisella on omat mieltymyksensä. Itse en peruskäyttäjänä ole törmännyt tuohon väitteeseen. Jos taas alkaa hääräämään jossain muualla kuin kotonaan distrojen kanssa kannattaisi ottaa asioista selvää.
7. helmikuuta 2007 kello 17.26
Pitää vielä kehottaa _kaikkia_ lukemaan tämä dokumentti:
http://webd.savonia-amk.fi/www/kt22440/LNW/linux_eioo_windows.html
Olen aika pitkälti samaa mieltä tuon kirjoittaneen kanssa.
Turha on GNU/Linuxia yrittää Windowsiksi Windowsin paikalle. Ei se tule onnistumaan, koska järjestelmien kehityksen ideologiat ovat jo niin äärimmäisen kaukana toisistaan.
Mutta tämä ei tarkoita, että Windows olisi huono järjestelmä. Kuten tuon dokumentin kirjoittajakin toteaa, se on turvallinen ja vakaa jos sitä osaa käyttää. Tosin, minulla ei ole virustorjuntaa eikä edes palomuuria … ja silti on W2k Pro turvallinen =)
9. helmikuuta 2007 kello 16.21
Työpaikalla on montaa eri käyttistä ja wintoosa on se mitä saa aina olla korjailemassa ja paikkaamassa. Ei näköjään riitä osaavakaan ylläpito huoltamaan surkeaa järjestelmää.
12. helmikuuta 2007 kello 0.24
Versionumeroinneista sen verran, että ohjelmien valmiuden arvioiminen sen mukaan onko versionumero pienempi vai suurempi kuin 1.0 on minusta aika tuhoontuomittua. Kriteerit “ei-betalle” vaihtelevat suuresti ja jonkun kehittäjäjoukon näkemys siitä, missä vaiheessa vaikkapa versionumero 0.53 on kelvollinen voi olla paljon tiukempi kuin jonkun toisen vaatimukset versionumerolle 2.0. Tämän näkee closed sourcen kanssakin äkkiä kun vertaa ensimmäisiä kauppaan päässeitä julkaisuita ohjelmista; jotkut ovat hienoja, kauniita ja vakaita, jotkut taas olisivat vielä kovasti hienosäädön tarpeessa.
15. helmikuuta 2007 kello 2.29
Ossin kirjoituksia lukiessa tuntuu siltä, että mieheltä puuttuu lukutaito. Änkytetään loputtomiin jostain turhanpäiväisestä asiasta kuten versionumerot (eivät kerro mitään ohjelman valmiudesta yksinään) ja DVD-toisto. Kun sitä lukutaitoa nyt ei kerran löydy, copy-pastetan erään aiemman kirjoittajan tässä lähettämän linkin:
http://www.eduskunta.fi/faktatmp/utatmp/ptk_99_2005_ke_1.htm
”Julkisuudessa on keskusteltu paljon myös siitä, tuleeko Linuxin libdvdcss-kirjastosta tai Macintosh-tietokoneista tämän lain myötä laittomia. Yksiselitteisesti ei tule, koska niitä voidaan käyttää myös muihin tarkoituksiin kuin suojausten kiertoon. Tämä rajaus kopiosuojauksen kiertoteknologian kieltävässä 50 b §:ssä on sinänsä välttämätön, koska muuten jopa piirtoheitintussit muuttuisivat Suomessa laittomiksi. Edellinen tekijänoikeuslakiesitys olisi tarkoittanut tätä. Piirtoheitintussin avulla kun voi kiertää erään cd-levyissä käytetyn kopiosuojauksen. Käytännössä rajaus on kuitenkin mieletön, sillä mikä tahansa kiertoteknologia muuttuu lailliseksi heti, kun se pultataan jonkin laajemman kokonaisuuden osaksi. Mitä mieltä on kriminalisoida ja sanktioida yksittäinen kopiosuojausten purkamiseen tarkoitettu ohjelma, kun sama purkuominaisuus on laajemman ohjelmistokokonaisuuden osana laillinen?”
Ei tarvita kaupallisia ohjelmia DVD:n katseluun, eikä myöskään jatkossa HD-DVD/Blu-Ray-levyihin. Ja ethän sinä niitä oikeasti ole nyt edes katsomassa, kunhan jankkaat tyhjänpäiväisesti mokomasta.
Jos kaupallisia ohjelmia kaipaat noin yleensä (kuten se LinDVD), niin miksi ihmeessä sitten olet valinnut Ubuntun, distron joka on suunniteltu Debian-pohjaisena pelkästään avoimille ohjelmille? Tämähän on kuin luulisi moottoripyörää autoksi – tehty täysin eri käyttötarkoituksiin. Asenna kaupallinen distro jos kaupalliset ohjelmat ovat välttämättömyys, siinä tulee LinDVD ja tuki kaupan päälle. Mutta ei, LinDVD:tä tai mitään muutakaan kaupallista softaa EI tarvita lailliseen DVD-/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray-toistoon.
Pakettilatausongelmia varten on internetissä sellainen asia kuin peilipalvelimet. Jos ei yksi palvelin toimi, ei sitä varmaankaan sitten kannata käyttää. Joitakin ylläolevia kirjoituksia voi vain ihmetellä. MSI ei todellakaan vastaa mitenkään oikeaa paketinhallintaa, eikä Windows omaa muutakaan siihen rinnastettavaa toimintoa. Sellainen Linux-kone on vielä näkemättä, joka hajoaa ohjelma-asennuksista. Sanomattakin selvää, että Windowsin kanssa moista tapahtuu kuukausittain.
15. helmikuuta 2007 kello 17.18
Tämä keskustelu näyttää todellakin herättävän tunteita. Onko todellakin niin, että Linuxista ei saa sanoa mitään kriittistä ilman hirmuista liekkivyörytystä?
Silläkin uhalla, että heitän lisää naftaa liekinheittimeen, jatkan kuitenkin muutaman virkkeen verran. Väitän edelleenkin, että DVD-levyjen käsittelyn laillisuus Linuxissa ei ole aivan selvää.
Ensinnäkin tuo täällä jo pariinkin otteeseen viitattu eduskuntakeskustelun lainaus on ainoastaan *kansanedustaja Kasvin oma mielipide*. Lukekaa sivustolta muutakin kuin edellisessä lainattu kohta, niin viiteyhteys selviää. Oppositiopoliitikon kommentit eivät ole lainsäädäntöä.
CSS-kopiosuojauksen murtaminen ei itse ehkä ole lain vastaista. _Mutta_ DeCSS-ohjelman (tai libdvdcss-kirjaston) levittäminen on esimerkiksi Linux-ylläpitopalveluja tarjoavalle yritykselle selvästi lainvastaista. Lukekaa pykälä 50b Lex Karpelasta:
http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1961/19610404?search%5Btype%5D=pika&search%5Bpika%5D=tekij%C3%A4noikeuslaki
“Tehokkaan teknisen toimenpiteen kiertämisen mahdollistavia tai kiertämistä helpottavia laitteita, tuotteita tai osia ei saa valmistaa tai tuoda maahan yleisölle levittämistä varten tai Suomen alueelle kolmanteen maahan kuljetettavaksi, levittää yleisölle, myydä, vuokrata, mainostaa myytäväksi tai vuokrattavaksi eikä pitää hallussa kaupallisessa tarkoituksessa. Tehokkaan teknisen toimenpiteen kiertämisen mahdollistavia tai sitä helpottavia palveluja ei liioin saa tarjota.”
Minä en ainakaan tuon perusteella uskaltaisi väittää esimerkiksi DeCSS:n lähdekoodiprinttiä esittävää T-paitaa kaupattavan laillisesti. Olisin myös varsin varovainen tarjoamaan valmiiksi paketoituja Linux-tietokoneita, joissa on valmiiksi asennettuna libdvdcss:n sisältämä jakelu.
Niin ikään DVD:n sisällön “rippaaminen” kiintolevylle haiskahtaa kielletyltä teoskappaleen valmistukselta:
“Teoksesta, jota suojaava tekninen toimenpide on kierretty teoksen saamiseksi kuultaville tai nähtäville, ei saa valmistaa kappaletta.”
Asian tiimoilta on odotettavissa tänä vuonna oikeuden tulkinta, kun Organisoidun keskustelun Mikko Rauhala ja Einar Karttunen vastaavat oikeudessa haasteeseen. Ks. http://mjr.iki.fi/eucd/haaste/haaste4.small.png
16. helmikuuta 2007 kello 11.35
Ossi: Porukkaa varmaankin ärsyttää virheellisen ja jopa valheellisen tiedon jakelu Linuxista Windows-evankelistan, jollaiseksi sinut voisi tuon podcastin perusteella helposti luokitella, taholta.
Nyt vihdoinkin sait asian oikein.
Eli libdvdcss on laillista käyttää ja se tekee DVD:n katselusta huomattavasti mukavampaa murtaen typerät suojaukset. Tämä tarkoittaa copyright-paasausten ym. vapaata ylihyppäämistä.
Levityksen kanssa asia on tosiaan epävarmempaa, mutta miksi tavallisten käyttäjien pitäisi sitä levitellä? Senhän saa ladattua ulkomaisilta palvelimilta koska vain. Eikä tämä vaadi edes kolmansien osapuolten pakettilähteiden lisäämistä; voithan ladata pelkän (todella pienen) libdvdcss RPM/DEB tiedoston yksinään.
Kasvi tosin asiaa tutkittuaan sanoisi myös libdvdcss:n levittämisen olevan laillista ja minä luottaisin asiaan perehtyneen kansanedustajan väitteeseen, mutta toisaalta tuo Lex Karpela on niin sekava ja tavalliset kansalaiset kriminalisoiva laki että ottaako tuosta nyt kukaan oikeasti selvää.
18. helmikuuta 2007 kello 16.40
Ossille tiedoksi, että “laillisia” eli lisensoituja DVD toisto-ohjelmia ei juuri linuxille ole.
Fluendo on tuomassa DVD toisto-ohjelmaa ja tässäkin lueteltiin jo se LinDVD, jota jo jossain käytetään.
Jos kotona katsot linuxi koneellasi DVD-leffoja käyttäen libdvdcss2 ohjelmistoa voit olla kyllä ihan huoleti, mutta jos myyt linuxi konetta jossa on libdvdcss2 vakiona todennäköisesti joudut lisenssimaksuja maksamaan, koska tarjoat “purkupalvelua”.
Fluendo on kyllä tehnyt hienoa työtä kodeekkien kanssa ja tunnetuimmat kodeekit voi ostaa heidän verkkokaupastaan gstreamer alustalle https://shop.fluendo.com/ ja luulisi, että OEM-linuxia työstävät yritykset sisällyttävät nämä distroihinsa.
Itse toivon, että myös tulevaisuudessa Fluendo toisi lisensoidut HD-DVD ja BluRay toisto-ohjelmat linuxikäyttäjien saataville.
6. maaliskuuta 2007 kello 15.14
Vau sainpas ihmiset aktiiviksi.
Huomautan että puhuin ass renderöijästä, en toistajasta. Se ketä vastasi että mPlayer osaa kyllä toistaa, mutta mites luot tekstiyksiä linuxissa ASS formaatilla? No ok kyllä Aegisub-tekstitys ohjelmasta on tulossa pikkuhiljaa myös Linuxille oma versionsa sillä ASA on korvaava renderöijä windowsin VSfilterille. Eipä tässä ole kuin 2v ollu sidottu windowsiin tämän takia.
Ainoa ongelma sitten muodustuu siitä että kuinka suuri prosentti linux videonkäsittelyohjelmista tukee ASA renderii filtterinä videon pakkauksessa… Jaa-a voipi hidastaa mua jonkun verran. Windosilla on toistaiseksi aika helppo avisynthin kanssa vetästä, mutta mielenkiinnolla odotan linuxille samanlaista tukea.
No joo. Sitten linuxin helppokäyttöisyydestä lisää. No tietenkin jos esim graffakorttiajureihin mennään, niin voidaan sanoa linuxia lapseksi. Esim en ole tähänpäivään mennessä saanut Kubuntussani toimimaan Digiääntä ulos samaan aikaan analoogisen kanssa. Lisäksi mitenköhän saan TV-outin toimimaa kunnolla linuxissa? Ai niin 4h internet selaamisen ja irc viestittämisen jälkeen onnistuin editoimaan xorg.conf -nimistä tiedostoo et sain edes resoluution säädettyä isommaksi ku nvidian omasta paneelista ei saa ku 1024*786. Tämä oli joku monitori ongelma et linux ajurit tunnistaa kyl nykyiset lcd digi monitorit, muttei tällästä die hard kuvaputki miehen analogi monitoria ja sen resoja. Sama vika on myös debianissa töissä.
Meinasi itku päästä ku kaiken säätämisen jälkeen buuttasin windosiin, vaihdoin ihan ongelmitta muutamalla klickauksella resoa, avoin telvision jossa tv-out toimi ongelmitta ja 5.1 äänet tulivat kotiteatterista samalla, kun myös analoginen audio minun kuulokkeistani.
Tiedä sitten Linuxin helppokäyttöisyydestä. Ja olihan siinä windowsin nvidian paneelin opettelussa aikanaan ongelmia, mutta kuitenkin se oli suht vaivatonta. Tollasta 4h menny edes silloin kun mä windowsilla ensikerran yritin resoo vaihtaa suuremmaksi, tai conffasin ensimmäistä kertaa tv-outtia 1990 luvulla. Olihan mulla sillon väriongelmia ja ne johtu vanhan tnt kortin ajureista vissii ja vielä tänäpäivänäki niihin joutuu vissii asentaa erillinen tvtool softa jos haluu toimimaa tv-outin edes windowsissa kunnolla. Mikä sitten on helppokäyttöisyyttä on aika suhteellista. Oletan kuitenkin että nvidia saa linux ajurinsa kuntoon parissa vuodessa ainakin, jos vertaa samaisten ajureiden windows puolen kehitystä aikanaa.
Juu ja pelaanhan mä linuxin kanssa Steamiä ja paria muuta windows peliä winen kanssa, että kuhan on päässyt asioiden perille ni eihä se linuxkaan vaikea käyttöinen ole. Itse lähde kuitenkin helppokäyttöisyydessä liikenteeseen siitä että graafinen ulkoasu on tehty siten että konetta voi myös ylläpitää graafisesti ilman sitä tosi tehokäyttäjän tietämystä. Olen toki samaa mieltä et komennon linuxin komentolinjassa kirjoittaa nopeammin kuin selaa hiirellä windowsissa, mutta suhteessa helppokäyttöisempi on windowsin malli. Tietenkin windowsin puolella helppokäyttöisyys aiheuttaa virus ongelmia, ja siinä olen sama mieltä.
Helppokäyttöisyys on kuitenkin yleensä guita, ei komentolinjaa, ja siksi ihmettelen muodostunutta flametusta kumpi on nopeempi jne. Puhutaan asiasta asialla. Tietenkin linux on parempi servereinä kun windows. Siinä olen täysin samaa mieltä. Serveri on taas jonkun muun ku pentin hommia, joten taas kerran se pentti varmaa ei tykkää komento linjasta ku missää ei okee avusteta mitä sun pitää kirjoittaa siihen tai ei ole visuaalista ilmettä josta voit ajatella mitä ja miten voisit edetä.
Tietenkin Linux varsinkin ubuntu jne ovat varsin helppoja peruskäyttäjälle myös. Mun mutsi käyttää firefoxii windowsissa nytki pankkiasioihin, joten eiköhä se oppis ubuntussaki firefoxilla tekemään saman asian. Tosin ei se kyl osais asentaa kumpaakaa käyttistä. Joten varmaa mä sen tekisin sitte oli se windows tai linux tai mac os.
Ok jos ihan perus pentti, hän voi kyllä valita ihan kumman vaa käyttiksen, ei se netin selaaminen sen kummallisempaa ole kummassakaan. Sitä voi ehkä vähän harmittaa ku kaverit puhuu mesestä, mutta ubuntussa joudut käyttää gaimii tai koepetee sen sijaan jne mutta eiköhä se pärjää.
ja ainoot mitä oikeesti on ongelmat linuxilla on mIRC ja MPC. Tahtoisin nuo kaksi sovellusta toimimaa natiivisti linuxissa. mIRC saa tosin winellä toimimaa hitaanpuoleisest ja bugittaen sekä mpc en edes yritä vaa tyydyn linuxin omiin videosoittimiin jotka on kyllä vielä niin surkeita etten ole yhteenkää tyytyväinen. Esim toivoisin johonkin soittimeen alas video barin samoin fullscreen tilaan esille tulevan barin josta voi kelata jne. Lisäksi kodeekien toimiminen on kyllä linuxissa ongelmallisempaa. Windowsissa vetäset koneelle kun koneelle CCCP codec packin ja voila kaikki nykyaikaiset paskat toimii heti vaikka windows media playerissä tai vaikkapa paketin mukana tulevassa MPC tai Zoomplayerissä. Linuxin puolella taas haet codec paketin ja asennat sen pakettihallinnasta mutta siltikään kaikki ohjelmat eivät toista heti suoraa jotaki video formaattia. Joku ohjelma esim vlc toimi heti, kun taas amarock tai mikä olikaan ei anna minkäänlaista kuvaa edes xvid formaatin asennettuani.
Rauhaa.
14. huhtikuuta 2007 kello 9.09
Kirjoitain sen perusteella, mitä muistan artikkelista lehdessä,
Linux Media-ympäristönä vähäteltiin. Tsekatkaapa DreamBox-DVB-S/C/(T) vastaanotin. Tsekatkaapa joku mediakäyttöön optimoitu jakelu – Linux on menossa hyvään suuntaan tässäkin kategoriassa!!
Tuotekehitykseen ei varmaan uhrata miljardeja, kuten M$ tapauksessa, mutta kehitys kehittyy huimaa vaihtia myös Linux’in puolella.
Toteanpa, että Linux on yllättävän monessa mukana. Olipa se PDA, kännykkä, jokin LAN/WAN purnukka tai MP3 soitin. Jotkut blueray (HD-DVD) soittimet sisältävät Linux’in.
Omassa hoidossani on radio-puhelinliikenteen puheyhteysjärjestelmä, jonka käyttöpaikka ja kosketusnäyttö pyörii Linux’illa. Hyvin!
Hoidossani/tiedossani on Linux’illa toteutettuja puhetallennus ja kuvantallennusjärjestelmiä, jotka toimivat Linux’illa. Edelleen hyvin.
Kaikki nämä käsittelevät ja ohjaavat satoja – ja jopa tuhansia audio/videosignaaleja kriittisissä järjestelmissä luotettavasti.. vuodesta toiseen!!
23. huhtikuuta 2007 kello 20.33
xp nin meni taas niin sekasin että jouduin positamaan sen ubuntulla kun mulla ei onnistut, näppiskään ei pelannut niin xpn omaa asennusohjelmaa ei voinut käyttää.
no käytin ubuntua ekan kerran ja en todellakaan ole tietokone expertti, hyvä että saan win xpn ladattua konelle ja osaan käyttää sitä.
niin siitä ubuntusta, oli nopea asentaa ja toimi nopeasti vanhassa athlonissani, mutta ongelmat alkoivat kun yritin asentaa ohjelmia netistä. 3 media playeria ja yhtäkään en saanut toimimaan. mese oli joku ubuntun oma , missä ei msn keskutelukuvakkeita, ei video ominaisuuksia, ninuksissa ei pelit toimi jne.
olen taas onnellinne että onnistuin saamaan xpn takaisin, tällä pärjään.
21. elokuuta 2007 kello 20.46
HTTP 404 – File not found – Internet Information Services… Tuollaista vastaukseksi linkin klikkaukseen. Ja vielä yritetään väittää, ettei lehdellä ole mitään ihmeempää “suuntautumista”.
14. lokakuuta 2008 kello 18.17
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22. lokakuuta 2008 kello 16.09
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30. syyskuuta 2009 kello 23.19
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tablet accessories low cost phentermine with out prescription Risedronate strengthens and preserves bone in individuals at risk of developing osteoporosis and bone fractures. Bone turnover, the process of bone resorption and formation, causes the release of distinctive markers into the blood. Risedronate reduces the concentration of these markers, which suggests that the rate of bone resorption and formation has decreased. This reduction in bone turnover reaches a maximum within six months of treatment. Risedronate can reduce bone turnover in postmenopausal women to levels seen in premenopause.
$4 prescription tramadol getting high In a multi-center open-label long-term study of sotalol in patients with life-threatening ventricular arrhythmias which had proven refractory to other antiarrhythmic medications, response by Holter monitoring was defined as in ESVEM. Response by PES was defined as non-inducibility of sustained VT by at least double extrastimuli delivered at a pacing cycle length of 400 msec. Overall survival and arrhythmia recurrence rates in this study were similar to those seen in ESVEM, although there was no comparative group to allow a definitive assessment of outcome.
cheap supplements cialis timing Plaque is made up of fat, cholesterol, calcium, and other substances found in the blood. The buildup of plaque narrows the inside of the arteries and, in time, may restrict blood flow to the heart. This buildup is called coronary artery disease (CAD).
ixempra prescribing information new tramadol cheap overnight Williams syndrome is caused by a deletion of more than 25 genes from a specific region of chromosome 7. The syndrome manifests when the mutated chromosome is inherited from either the mother or father; the presence of one normal copy of chromosome 7 is insufficient to prevent the syndrome.
symptoms for alcoholism phentermine suppliers wholesale The eggs of birds and reptiles have a large extra-embryonic sac that contains nutritional stores, the yolk sac. In placental mammals, this extra-embryonic membrane does not contain a yolk mass, and, thus, should not be called a yolk or vitelline sac.In humans, the primary umbilical vesicle (extra-embryonic endoderm) appears in the second week, and becomes the secondary umbilical vesicle in the third week with the addition of a layer of extra-embryonic mesoderm. The secondary umbilical vesicle is important as the site of formation of the first blood vessels and blood cells in the conceptus, and the site of origin of the primordial germ cells. In the fourth week, folding of the embryo separates the cavity of the umbilical vesicle from the lumen of the primitive gut, leaving a duct, the omphalo-enteric duct (”yolk stalk” or vitelline duct), connecting the two cavities that is patent for a couple of weeks. At around 6 weeks, the remnants of the umbilical vesicle and omphalo-enteric duct are incorporated into the umbilical cord. Persistence of all or part of the omphalo-enteric duct is the cause of Meckel’s diverticulum and related anomalies.
electronic medicines tramadol apap medication Seizures in Patients Without Epilepsy: Post-marketing reports have shown that GABITRIL use has been associated with new onset seizures and status epilepticus in patients without epilepsy. Dose may be an important predisposing factor in the development of seizures, although seizures have been reported in patients taking daily doses of GABITRIL as low as 4 mg/day. In most cases, patients were using concomitant medications (antidepressants, antipsychotics, stimulants, narcotics) that are thought to lower the seizure threshold. Some seizures occurred near the time of a dose increase, even after periods of prior stable dosing.
zocor prescribing information taking cialis and viagra at the same time Use in Ambulatory Patients: Buprenex may impair the mental or physical abilities required for the performance of potentially dangerous tasks such as driving a car or operating machinery. Therefore, Buprenex should be administered with caution to ambulatory patients who should be warned to avoid such hazards.
drinking phentermine buy best Many people with anxiety disorders benefit from joining a self-help or support group, which helps them share their problems and achievements with others. Internet chat rooms can also be useful. However, any advice received over the Internet should be used with caution. Internet acquaintances have usually never seen each other and false identities are common. Talking with a trusted friend or member of the clergy can also provide support.
physical therapy for osteoarthritis have you taken phentermine The chance of significant hypotension may possibly be minimized by titration of the dose and by focusing attention on signs and symptoms of hypotension prior to dose advancement. In addition, patients moving from a supine to a fixed upright position may be at increased risk for hypotension and orthostatic effects.
cancer treatment medical arts network adipex Table 3 gives the incidence of treatment–emergent adverse events that occurred in 2% or more of patients treated with Cymbalta in the premarketing acute phase of DPN placebo–controlled trials (doses of 20 to 120 mg/day) and with an incidence greater than placebo. The most commonly observed adverse events in Cymbalta–treated DPN patients (incidence of 5% or greater and at least twice the incidence in placebo patients) were: nausea; somnolence; dizziness; constipation; dry mouth; hyperhidrosis; decreased appetite; and asthenia (seesection- Table 3]).
symptoms for malaria health food form of adipex The only adverse event occurring in ≥3% of patients in controlled clinical trials with DDAVP Tablets that was probably, possibly, or remotely related to study drug was headache (4% DDAVP, 3% placebo).
therapy activities for kids cialis wmv Its empirical formula is C18H20FN3O4, and its molecular weight is 361.4. Ofloxacin is an off-white to pale yellow crystalline powder. The molecule exists as a zwitterion at the pH conditions in the small intestine. The relative solubility characteristics of ofloxacin at room temperature, as defined by USP nomenclature, indicate that ofloxacin is considered to be soluble in aqueous solutions with pH between 2 and 5. It is sparingly to slightly soluble in aqueous solutions with pH 7 (solubility falls to 4 mg/mL) and freely soluble in aqueous solutions with pH above 9. Ofloxacin has the potential to form stable coordination compounds with many metal ions. This in vitro chelation potential has the following formation order: Fe+3 > Al+3 > Cu +2 > Ni+2 > Pb+2 > Zn+2 > Mg+2 > Ca+2 > Ba+2.
amino acid supplement how to take cialis pills Defecography is an x-ray of the anorectal area that evaluates how completely stool is expelled, identifies any anorectal abnormalities, and evaluates rectal muscle contraction and relaxation. During the exam, the doctor fills the rectum with a soft paste that is the same consistency as stool. The patient sits on a toilet positioned inside an x-ray machine, then relaxes and squeezes the anus to expel the paste. The doctor studies the x rays for anorectal problems that occurred as the paste was expelled.
vitamins for tramadol kidney failure One approach involves the study of human genes. With the publication of the human genome sequence in 2003, mental health researchers are studying various combinations of genes to determine if any DNA variations are associated with increased risk of developing a mental disorder. Neuroimaging, such as the use of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), may also lead to a better understanding of eating disorders.
wieght loss pills cialis pills tadalafil under tongue dissolve In cases where excessive doses have been taken, sleep ensues rapidly and blood pressure, pulse, and respiratory rates are reduced to basal levels. Any drug remaining in the stomach should be removed and symptomatic therapy given. Should respiration or blood pressure become compromised, respiratory assistance, central nervous system stimulants, and pressor agents should be administered cautiously as indicated. Meprobamate is metabolized in the liver and excreted by the kidney. Diuresis, osmotic (mannitol) diuresis, peritoneal dialysis, and hemodialysis have been used successfully. Careful monitoring of urinary output is necessary and caution should be taken to avoid overhydration. Relapse and death, after initial recovery, have been attributed to incomplete gastric emptying and delayed absorption. Meprobamate can be measured in biological fluids by two methods: colorimetric (Hoffman, A.J. and Ludwig, B.J.: J Amer Pharm Assn 48: 740, 1959) and gas chromatographic (Douglas, J.F. et al: Anal Chem 39: 956, 1967).
cards for cancer patients buy tramadol august Coronary angiography can show how well blood is being pumped out of the heart’s main pumping chambers, which are called ventricles. An x-ray taken when the dye is in the heart’s ventricles is called a ventriculogram. (The procedure is called ventriculography.) When the catheter is inside the heart, the doctor may use it to take blood samples from different parts of the heart or to do minor heart surgery.
warnings amneal pharmaceuticals tramadol The patient can help prevent rejection by taking the medicines and following a diet, but watching for signs of rejection—like fever or soreness in the area of the new kidney or a change in the amount of urine you make—is important. The patient should report any such changes to the health care team.
old crowe medicine show is tramadol addictive The effectiveness of nateglinide, measured against placebo, was determined in patients with type 2 diabetes who had HbA1C levels 7% or greater. Nateglinide reduced both HbA1C and FPG as compared to placebo. This study showed that nateglinide has a measurable effect on blood sugar levels.
auto doctor cialis bayer Increased frequencies of malformations (brain, cardiovascular, digit, and skeletal anomalies), death, growth retardation, and functional impairment (chromodacryorrhea, hyperactivity, circling) were observed among the offspring of rats receiving fosphenytoin during pregnancy. Most of the adverse effects on embryo-fetal development occurred at doses of 33 mg PE/kg or higher (approximately 30% of the maximum human loading dose or higher on a mg/m2 basis), which produced peak maternal plasma phenytoin concentrations of approximately 20 Вµg/mL or greater. Maternal toxicity was often associated with these doses and plasma concentrations, however, there is no evidence to suggest that the developmental effects were secondary to the maternal effects. The single occurrence of a rare brain malformation at a nonmaternotoxic dose of 17 mg PE/kg (approximately 10% of the maximum human loading dose on a mg/m2 basis) was also considered drug-induced. The developmental effects of fosphenytoin in rats were similar to those which have been reported following administration of phenytoin to pregnant rats.
nurse maximum safe single dose of xanax Cerebral angiography should be undertaken with special caution in extreme age, poor clinical condition, advanced arteriosclerosis, severe arterial hypertension, cardiac decompensation, recent cerebral embolism, or thrombosis.
supplements for liver tramadol apap opinion 4. Hypercoagulability. Some studies have shown that women taking estrogen replacement therapy have hypercoagulability, primarily related to decreased antithrombin activity. This effect appears dose- and duration-dependent and is less pronounced than that associated with oral contraceptive use. Also, postmenopausal women tend to have increased coagulation parameters at baseline compared to premenopausal women. There is some suggestion that low dose postmenopausal mestranol may increase the risk of thromboembolism, although the majority of studies (of primarily conjugated estrogen users) report no such increase. There is insufficient information on hypercoagulability in women who have had previous thromboembolic disease.
prescription drug plan adipex online rss feed Ask your doctor or physical therapist what exercises are best for you. Ask for guidelines on exercising when a joint is sore or if swelling is present. Also, check if you should (1) use pain-relieving drugs, such as analgesics or anti-inflammatories (also called NSAIDs or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) to make exercising easier, or (2) use ice afterward.
sports medicine salary tramadol and adderall The patient should be monitored closely to avoid undertreatment and overtreatment. Undertreatment may result in poor school performance due to impaired concentration and slowed mentation and in reduced adult height. Overtreatment may accelerate the bone age and result in premature epiphyseal closure and compromised adult stature.
generic pup.z tramadol home Oral administration of clomiphene citrate to male rats at doses of 0.3 or 1 mg/kg/day caused decreased fertility, while higher doses caused temporary infertility. Oral doses of 0.1 mg/kg/day in female rats temporarily interrupted the normal cyclic vaginal smear pattern and prevented conception. Doses of 0.3 mg/kg/day slightly reduced the number of ovulated ova and corpora lutea, while 3 mg/kg/day inhibited ovulation.
ut physicians purchase phentermine from internet source Caffeine, barbiturates, acetaminophen and codeine are excreted in breast milk in small amounts, but the significance of their effects on nursing infants is not known. Because of potential for serious adverse reactions in nursing infants from Butalbital, Acetaminophen, Caffeine, and Codeine Phosphate Capsules, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to discontinue the drug, taking into account the importance of the drug to the mother.
prescribing placebos cialis price in canada Once cysts have grown to about one-half inch, however, diagnosis is possible with imaging technology. Ultrasound, which passes sound waves through the body to create a picture of the kidneys, is used most often. Ultrasound imaging does not use any injected dyes or radiation and is safe for all patients, including pregnant women. It can also detect cysts in the kidneys of a fetus, but large cyst growth this early in life is uncommon in autosomal dominant PCKD.
drug testing tramadol order overnight saturday delivery In primary sclerosing cholangitis (PSC), the bile ducts inside and outside the liver become inflamed and scarred. As the scarring increases, the ducts become blocked. The ducts are important because they carry bile out of the liver. Bile is a liquid that helps break down fat in food. If the ducts are blocked, bile builds up in the liver and damages liver cells. Eventually, PSC can cause cirrhosis and liver failure.
loyola medicine no prescription pharmacy buy phentermine NSAIDs, including etodolac, can cause serious skin adverse events such as exfoliative dermatitis, Stevens-Johnson Syndrome (SJS), and toxic epidermal necrolysis (TEN), which can be fatal. These serious events may occur without warning. Patients should be informed about the signs and symptoms of serious skin manifestations and use of the drug should be discontinued at the first appearance of skin rash or any other sign of hypersensitivity.
light therapy for face phentermine 37.5 c o d s HCV is spread primarily by contact with infected blood and blood products. Blood transfusions and the use of shared, unsterilized, or poorly sterilized needles, syringes and injection equipment or paraphernalia have been the main routes of the spread of HCV in the United States.] With the introduction in 1991 of routine blood screening for HCV antibody and improvements in the test in mid-1992, transfusion-related hepatitis C has virtually disappeared. Nowadays, injection drug use is the most common way to contract the infection. Both heterosexual and homosexual activity, particularly with multiple partners and without protective measures, can transmit the virus. Close contact between household members has also been known to spread the virus.
fat pill 6 tramadol hydrochloride In general, people with metabolic syndrome who are overweight or obese are urged to reduce their weight by 7 to 10% during the first year of treatment. For example, a person weighing 250 pounds should try to lose 18 to 25 pounds. A person weighing 300 pounds should try to lose 21 to 30 pounds. Many people struggle with weight loss because often the results are not immediate, leading to patient discouragement. Also dieting alone with “crash diets” frequently has a poor rate of success. However, weight loss is usually possible in the long term as long as it is planned in conjunction with lifestyle changes which include the adoption of regular exercise.
salary for massage therapy crush cialis Based on pharmacokinetic data which demonstrate significantly increased plasma concentrations of losartan in cirrhotic patients, a lower dose should be considered for patients with impaired liver function (see section-11 DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION] and section-4.2 CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY, Pharmacokinetics]).
amino acids supplements tramadol 50 mg pliva 616 ingredients Eletriptan is a prescription drug used for the treatment of migraine headaches. It belongs to a family of antimigraine drugs called triptans. Other members of this family include sumatriptan (Imitrex) and zolmitriptan (Zomig). Triptans reduce the pain of a migraine by activating serotonin receptors on blood vessels and nerve cells. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved eletriptan in December 2002.
mini tablet rx phentermine 37.5 Paraneoplastic syndromes are a group of rare degenerative disorders that are triggered by a person’s immune system response to a neoplasm, or cancerous tumor. Neurologic paraneoplastic syndromes are believed to occur when cancer-fighting antibodies or white blood cells known as T cells mistakenly attack normal cells in the nervous system. These disorders typically affect middle-aged to older persons and are most common in persons with lung, ovarian, lymphatic, or breast cancer. Neurologic symptoms generally develop over a period of days to weeks and usually occur prior to tumor detection, which can complicate diagnosis. These symptoms may include difficulty in walking and/or swallowing, loss of muscle tone, loss of fine motor coordination, slurred speech, memory loss, vision problems, sleep disturbances, dementia, seizures, sensory loss in the limbs, and vertigo. Neurologic paraneoplastic syndromes include Lambert-Eaton myasthenic syndrome, stiff-person syndrome, encephalomyelitis (inflammation of the brain and spinal cord), myasthenia gravis, cerebellar degeneration, limbic and/or brainstem encephalitis, neuromyotonia, and opsoclonus (involving eye movement) and sensory neuropathy.
treatments symptoms college pharmacy top buy tramadol now While there are no large well-controlled studies on the use of trimethoprim in pregnant women, Brumfitt and Pursell, in a retrospective study, reported the outcome of 186 pregnancies during which the mother received either placebo or oral trimethoprim in combination with sulfamethoxazole. The incidence of congenital abnormalities was 4.5% (3 of 66) in those who received placebo and 3.3% (4 of 120) in those receiving trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole. There were no abnormalities in the 10 children whose mothers received the drug during the first trimester. In a separate survey, Brumfitt and Pursell also found no congenital abnormalities in 35 children whose mothers had received oral trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole at the time of conception or shortly thereafter.
family pharmacy tramadol for puppy People of Mediterranean or Southeast Asian heritage also can inherit hemoglobin variants. Some of these variants cause no symptoms; others cause some health problems. Variant hemoglobin does not increase your risk for diabetes.
2.6.24-19-generic results from taking adipex Oral doses of 10, 20, 40, 80 and 160 mg/kg were studied in pre- and postnatal development studies in rats. Doses of 40 mg/kg (38 times the human dose) and above were associated with maternal toxicity, an increase in the length of gestation, and an increase in the number of stillborn fetuses. These doses of ketoconazole were also toxic to the offspring, resulting in a decrease in fetal/pup weights and viability.
gas medicine tramadol naltrexone Exchange resins, such as sodium polystyrene sulfonate, whether administered orally or rectally, reduce serum potassium levels by sodium replacement of the potassium; fluid retention may occur in some patients because of the increased sodium intake.
doctors pediatrics drug metabolism inhibition tramadol Prograf injection must be diluted with 0.9% Sodium Chloride Injection or 5% Dextrose Injection to a concentration between 0.004 mg/mL and 0.02 mg/mL prior to use. Diluted infusion solution should be stored in glass or polyethylene containers and should be discarded after 24 hours. The diluted infusion solution should not be stored in a PVC container due to decreased stability and the potential for extraction of phthalates. In situations where more dilute solutions are utilized (e.g., pediatric dosing, etc.), PVC-free tubing should likewise be used to minimize the potential for significant drug adsorption onto the tubing. Parenteral drug products should be inspected visually for particulate matter and discoloration prior to administration, whenever solution and container permit. Due to the chemical instability of tacrolimus in alkaline media, Prograf injection should not be mixed or co-infused with solutions of pH 9 or greater (e.g., ganciclovir or acyclovir).
hydrocortisone tablets better erection cialis or viagra The BLM gene provides instructions for producing a protein called the Bloom (BLM) syndrome protein, which is a member of the DNA helicase family. DNA helicases are enzymes that unwind the two spiral strands of a DNA molecule so that they can be copied.
obgyn doctors flush tramadol from system Blood tests are also used to measure cholesterol levels and detect diabetes. The latter is determined by testing fasting blood sugar and glucose tolerance tests (glucose level after a loading dose of sugar is consumed).
supplements for heart nrop adipex Central Nervous System: The side effects most frequently reported with phenothiazine compounds are extrapyramidal symptoms including pseudoparkinsonism, dystonia, dyskinesia, akathisia, oculogyric crises, opisthotonos, and hyperreflexia. Muscle rigidity sometimes accompanied by hyperthermia has been reported following use of fluphenazine decanoate. Most often these extrapyramidal symptoms are reversible; however, they may be persistent (see below). The frequency of such reactions is related in part to chemical structure: one can expect a higher incidence with fluphenazine decanoate than with less potent piperazine derivatives or with straight-chain phenothiazines such as chlorpromazine. With any given phenothiazine derivative, the incidence and severity of such reactions depend more on individual patient sensitivity than on other factors, but dosage level and patient age are also determinants.
symptoms for color blindness tramadol recreational effects ZANTAC 150 Tablets (ranitidine HCl equivalent to 150В mg of ranitidine) are peach, film-coated, 5-sided tablets embossed with “ZANTAC 150″ on one side and “Glaxo” on the other. They are available in bottles of 60 (NDC 0173-0344-42), 180 (NDC 0173-0344-17), and 500 (NDC 0173-0344-14) tablets.
symptoms for shingles tramadol not working An increased risk of thromboembolic and thrombotic disease associated with the use of oral contraceptives is well established.17, 33-51 Case-control studies have estimated the relative risk to be 3 for the first episode of superficial venous thrombosis, 4 to 11 for deep vein thrombosis or pulmonary embolism, and 1.5 to 6 for women with predisposing conditions for venous thromboembolic disease.34-37, 45, 46 Cohort studies have shown the relative risk to be somewhat lower, about 3 for new cases (subjects with no past history of venous thrombosis or varicose veins) and about 4.5 for new cases requiring hospitalization.42, 47, 48 The risk of venous thromboembolic disease associated with oral contraceptives is not related to duration of use.
remedy medicine generic cialis canada buy how to The NINDS supports and encourages a broad range of basic and clinical research on neurogenetic disorders such as Leigh’s disease. The goal of this research is to understand what causes these disorders and then to apply these findings to new ways to diagnose, treat, and prevent them.
healthcare info on tramadol and severe itching IONSYSв„ў contains fentanyl, a potent opioid agonist and Schedule II controlled substance with high potential for abuse similar to hydromorphone, methadone, morphine, and oxycodone. Fentanyl can be abused in a manner similar to other opioid agonists, legal or illicit. This should be considered when prescribing or dispensing IONSYSв„ў in situations where the Health Care Professional is concerned about an increased risk of misuse, abuse, or diversion. After the maximum dosage administration, a significant amount of fentanyl remains in the device.
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symptoms for thyroid u 19835 cialis This abnormality was not seen in mice or rabbits. There are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. LIORESAL should be used during pregnancy only if the potential benefit justifies the potential risk to the fetus.
prescription shop tramadol for my dog Treatment with corticosteroids such as ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone) and prednisone is standard, despite the risk of serious side effects. Newer antiepileptic medications, such as vigabatrin (currently not approved for use in the US) have shown some efficacy. A small minority of children has secondarily generalized spasms as the result of cortical lesions (areas of damaged brain tissue). Removal of these lesions may result in improvement.
patient accounts order phentermine no primary care physician Studies from Britain and the US have shown an increased risk of developing hepatocellular carcinoma in long term (≥ 8 years)52-54,96 oral contraceptive users. However, these cancers are extremely rare in the U.S. and the attributable risk (the excess incidence) of liver cancers in oral contraceptive users approaches less than one per million users. It is unknown whether ORTHO EVRA® is distinct from oral contraceptives in this regard.
dentist doctors photo or picture of tramadol pill Solutions containing sodium ion should be used with great care, if at all, in patients with congestive heart failure, severe renal insufficiency and in clinical states in which there exists edema with sodium retention.
ou physicians israeli fighter cialis Reactions known to occur with parenteral administration of iodinated ionic contrast agents (see the listing below) are possible with any nonionic agent. Approximately 95 percent of adverse reactions accompanying the use of other water-soluble intravascularly administered contrast agents are mild to moderate in degree. However, life-threatening reactions and fatalities, mostly of cardiovascular origin, have occurred. Reported incidences of death from the administration of other iodinated contrast media range from 6.6 per 1 million (0.00066 percent) to 1 in 10,000 patients (0.01 percent). Most deaths occur during injection or 5 to 10 minutes later, the main feature being cardiac arrest with cardiovascular disease as the main aggravating factor. Isolated reports of hypotensive collapse and shock are found in the literature. The incidence of shock is estimated to be 1 out of 20,000 (0.005 percent) patients.
diet loss pill weight phentermine 37.5mg 90 tablets TZDs are also being investigated for use in polycystic ovary syndrome], non-alcoholic steatohepatitis], psoriasis], and other, less prevalent conditions such as Waldenstrom’s macroglobulinemia].
computer doctor free sample cialis Hydrochlorothiazide: A study in normal healthy volunteers has shown that concomitant administration of immediate-release DynaCircВ® (isradipine) and hydrochlorothiazide does not result in altered pharmacokinetics of either drug. In a study in hypertensive patients, addition of isradipine to existing hydrochlorothiazide therapy did not result in any unexpected adverse effects, and isradipine had an additional antihypertensive effect.
drugs interaction is xanax like valium Individuals with cleidocranial dysplasia may have decreased bone density (osteopenia) and may develop osteoporosis, a condition that makes bones progressively more brittle and prone to fracture, at a relatively early age. Women with cleidocranial dysplasia have an increased risk of requiring a cesarean section when delivering a baby, due to a narrow pelvis preventing passage of the infant’s head.
nursing patients tramadol dosage forms In U.S. placebo-controlled clinical trials for major depressive disorder, 12% to 16% of patients treated with fluoxetine and 7% to 9% of patients treated with placebo reported anxiety, nervousness, or insomnia.
pharmacy center cymbalta oxycodone percocet phentermine xanax CABG is one treatment for CAD. During CABG, a healthy artery or vein from another part of the body is connected, or grafted, to the blocked coronary artery. The grafted artery or vein bypasses (that is, it goes around) the blocked portion of the coronary artery. This new passage routes oxygen-rich blood around the blockage to the heart muscle. As many as four major blocked coronary arteries can be bypassed during one surgery.
pharmacy news tramadol appetite suppressant There are no data available on the effects of acute or chronic overdosage with NASONEX Nasal Spray, 50 mcg. Because of low systemic bioavailability, and an absence of acute drug-related systemic findings in clinical studies, overdose is unlikely to require any therapy other than observation. Intranasal administration of 1600 mcg (4 times the recommended dose of NASONEX Nasal Spray, 50 mcg) daily for 29 days, to healthy human volunteers, was well tolerated with no increased incidence of adverse events. Single intranasal doses up to 4000 mcg have been studied in human volunteers with no adverse effects reported. Single oral doses up to 8000 mcg have been studied in human volunteers with no adverse effects reported. Chronic overdosage with any corticosteroid may result in signs or symptoms of hypercorticism (see section-8 PRECAUTIONS]). Acute overdosage with this dosage form is unlikely since one bottle of NASONEX Nasal Spray, 50 mcg contains approximately 8500 mcg of mometasone furoate.
michigan physicians adipex metabolism Because of the potential for serious adverse reactions in nursing infants from MOTOFENВ®, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to discontinue the drug, taking into account the importance of the drug to the mother.
patients’ symptoms phentermine pay with e-check Abatacept can reactivate tuberculosis (TB) in people who have been previously infected with TB. Before starting treatment, patients should be screened with a tuberculin skin test, chest X-ray, and the QuantiFERON Gold TB test. If any tests are positive, the latent TB should be treated prior to starting Orencia.
medical clinic cialis lasts for Oral contraceptives may increase the tendency to develop strokes (stoppage or rupture of blood vessels in the brain) and angina pectoris and heart attacks (blockage of blood vessels in the heart). Any of these conditions can cause death or serious disability.
herbs for adipex 37.5 free shipping Parents should be alert for possible signs of asthma in children, such as coughing at night, frequent colds, wheezing, or other signs of breathing problems. If a parent suspects that their child has asthma, or that their child’s asthma is not well-controlled, they should take the child to a doctor for an exam and testing. If a child has asthma, the parent will need to go to the doctor for regular follow-up visits and to make sure that the child uses the medicines properly.
natural supplements for menopause adipex hoodia meridia phentermine If this medicine at least 15 hours before delivering, it also can reduce the chances that the baby will have any bleeding into the brain or develop necrotizing enterocolitis, a serious condition that affects the baby’s intestines.
nrmp opinions on generic cialis Prescribing recommendations for interacting agents are summarized in Table 8 (see also section-3.1 CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY, Pharmacokinetics]; section-7.3 PRECAUTIONS, Drug Interactions]; section-10 DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION]).
kim leoni medicine phentermine no prescription online consultation 37.5 Axillary lymph node dissection has been considered essential to staging breast cancer patients, but carries a significant risk of complications,e.g.,lymphedema of the arm occurs in some patients.In the literature, lymphedema is estimated from 1% to 20% of patients who have axillary lymph node dissection. The actual incidence is difficult to establish since symptoms may occur many years after surgery.While most lymphedema is mild, some women develop significant arm and hand swelling. It is anticipated that less extensive axillary surgery will lower the incidence of lymphedema and improve post-operative recovery time.Lymphatic mapping and sentinel lymph node biopsy, with or without lymphatic mapping, are procedures that may provide staging information without the risks of a standard axillary lymph node dissection.
drug reactions phentermine without prescription or doctor Renal Insufficiency: In patients with creatinine clearance 6 to 28 mL/min, the AUC of quinupristin and dalfopristin in combination with their major metabolites increased about 40% and 30%, respectively.
bathroom medicine cabinet united states pharmacy xanax overnight delivery Like the related disease cellulitis, erysipelas usually begins with a minor incident, such as a bruise. It can also begin at the site of a burn, surgical cut, or wound, or any other break in the skin. These breaks in the skin’s defenses allow bacteria to enter and begin an infection.
light therapy for face mexico phentermine 37.5 The antibiotic component in the combination (tobramycin) is included to provide action against susceptible organisms. In vitro studies have demonstrated that tobramycin is active against susceptible strains of the following microorganisms: Staphylococci, including S. aureus and S. epidermidis (coagulase-positive and coagulase-negative), including penicillin-resistant strains.
big chief tablets north carolina pharmacy phentermine In 1948, Dr. Lawrence Craven noted a surprisingly low incidence of heart attacks among patients to whom he had prescribed aspirin, and began recommending it to all patients and colleagues to reduce cardiovascular problems.5] In the early 1970s, the effect of aspirin on inflammation-causing prostaglandins became the focus of investigations into aspirin’s mechanism of action. By 1988, the FDA recommended use of aspirin to reduce the risk of recurrent heart attack, and prevent the first heart attack, in patients with unstable angina. The FDA also approved aspirin for the prevention of recurrent transient-ischemic attacks or “mini-strokes” and made aspirin standard therapy for previous strokes. In addition to its role in heart attack and stroke prevention, research continues to explore aspirin’s possible role in prevention of colon, esophageal cancer and other diseases.
family physicians offices phentermine and high blood pressure medicine This test can help show how high an individual patient’s risk is for coronary heart disease. A lipoprotein panel looks at cholesterol levels together with the structures in the blood that transport cholesterol, so called lipoproteins. Each component of the test is necessary to give a full assessment of the risk each patient has of developing blockages in the arteries to the heart and therefore for suffering a heart attack.
vitamin supplements internetresults adipex The development of a potentially-life threatening serotonin syndrome may occur with triptans, including treatment with AMERGE, particularly during combined use with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) or serotonin norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors (SNRIs). If concomitant treatment with naratriptan and an SSRI (e.g., fluoxetine, paroxetine, sertraline, fluvoxamine, citalopram, escitalopram) or SNRI (e.g., venlafaxine, duloxetine) is clinically warranted, careful observation of the patient is advised, particularly during treatment initiation and dose increases. Serotonin syndrome symptoms may include mental status changes (e.g., agitation, hallucinations, coma), autonomic instability (e.g., tachycardia, labile blood pressure, hyperthermia), neuromuscular aberrations (e.g., hyperreflexia, incoordination), and/or gastrointestinal symptoms (e.g., nausea, vomiting, diarrhea).
mg cialis class action suit If oligohydramnios is observed, HYZAAR should be discontinued unless it is considered life-saving for the mother. Contraction stress testing (CST), a non-stress test (NST), or biophysical profiling (BPP) may be appropriate, depending upon the week of pregnancy. Patients and physicians should be aware, however, that oligohydramnios may not appear until after the fetus has sustained irreversible injury.
nobel prize in medicine place of tramadol in practice Stroke mortality rates among adults in England and Wales are higher among persons who had lower birth weights.0] A similar study compared a group of South Carolina Medicaid beneficiaries <50 years of age who had stroke to population controls.1] The odds of stroke were more than double for those with birth weights <2500 g as compared with those weighing 4000 g (with a significant linear trend for intermediate birth weights). Regional differences in birth weight may partially underlie geographic differences in stroke-related mortality. However, the reason for this relationship remains uncertain, and statistical association does not prove causality.
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biggest drug bust tramadol 180 3 00 Labetalol has been shown to cross the placental barrier in humans. Only negligible amounts of the drug crossed the blood-brain barrier in animal studies. Labetalol is approximately 50% protein bound. Neither hemodialysis nor peritoneal dialysis removes a significant amount of labetalol HCl from the general circulation (<1%).
linux tablet adipex allergy Insulin requirements may be increased if you are taking other drugs with hyperglycemic activity, such as oral contraceptives, corticosteroids, or thyroid replacement therapy. Insulin requirements may be reduced in the presence of drugs with hypoglycemic activity, such as oral antidiabetic agents, salicylates (for example, aspirin), sulfa antibiotics, and certain antidepressants. Always discuss any medications you are taking with your doctor.
cancer buy adipex in uk Insulin requirements may be increased if you are taking other drugs with blood–glucose–raising activity, such as oral contraceptives, corticosteroids, or thyroid replacement therapy. Insulin requirements may be reduced in the presence of drugs that lower blood glucose or affect how your body responds to insulin, such as oral antidiabetic agents, salicylates (for example, aspirin), sulfa antibiotics, alcohol, certain antidepressants and some kidney and blood pressure medicines. Your Health Care Professional may be aware of other medications that may affect your diabetes control. Therefore, always discuss any medications you are taking with your doctor.
emedicine phentermine no prior 30 mg While less well-known than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (manic-depressive illness), BPD is the most common personality disorder, affecting about 1.4% percent of the population.] It affects women more often than men.] It is also the most serious personality disorder. Due in part to their frequent suicidal behaviors, patients often need extensive mental health services, and account for 20% of psychiatric hospitalizations.] Yet, with help, and particularly with early intervention as the disorder begins to emerge in adolescence, some improve over time and are eventually able to lead productive lives.
disaster medicine order phentermine phentermine mg cheapest phentermine In patients with chronic asthma, including patients with severe asthma requiring inhaled corticosteroids or alternate-day oral corticosteroids, many clinical studies have shown that theophylline decreases the frequency and severity of symptoms, including nocturnal exacerbations, and decreases the “as needed” use of inhaled beta2 agonists. Theophylline has also been shown to reduce the need for short courses of daily oral prednisone to relieve exacerbations of airway obstruction that are unresponsive to bronchodilators in asthmatics.
internal medicine doctors cialis free fedex LASIX (furosemide) Tablets 20 mg are supplied as white, oval, monogrammed tablets in Bottles of 100 (NDC 0039-0067-10), 500 (NDC 0039-0067-50), and 1000 (NDC 0039-0067-70). The 20 mg tablets are imprinted with “LasixВ®” on one side and “HOECHST” on the other, or with “LasixВ®” on one side.
cost of prescriptions new tramadol tramadol hcl 50 mg tab Loteprednol/Tobramycin is dispensed in bottles containing 0.5% Loteprednol and 0.3% Tobramycin in a suspension for application into the eye(s). The recommended dose is one or two drops into the affected eye every four to six hours. If needed, drops can be applied every one to two hours for up to two days after starting treatment. The frequency is reduced gradually when the inflammation and/or infection improves.
prescribing physician cheap refill on phentermine 30mg Other data suggest that sumatriptan treatment is not associated with an increase in early recurrence of headache, and that treatment with sumatriptan has little effect on the incidence of latter-occurring headaches (i.e., those occurring after 2, but before 18 or 24В hours).
dead poetic new medicines extra cheap online phentermine The rate of metabolism of tricyclic antidepressants varies widely from individual to individual, chiefly on a genetically determined basis. Up to a 36-fold difference in plasma level may be noted among individuals taking the same oral dose of desipramine. The ratio of 2-hydroxydesipramine to desipramine may be increased in the elderly, most likely due to decreased renal elimination with aging.
over prescribe men on phentermine Autosomal dominant PCKD is the most common inherited disorder of the kidneys. The phrase “autosomal dominant” means that if one parent has the disease, there is a 50% chance that the disease gene will pass to a child. In some cases—perhaps 10 percent—autosomal dominant PCKD occurs spontaneously in patients. In these cases, neither of the parents carries a copy of the disease gene.
symptoms for rabies order cialis soft tabs It is not known whether the ribavirin product is excreted in human milk. Because of the potential for serious adverse reactions from the drug in nursing infants, a decision should be made whether to discontinue nursing or to delay or discontinue RIBASPHEREВ® (Ribavirin capsules).
supplements for ed tramadol buy line In 9 subjects receiving a single 5 mg dose of anagrelide, standing blood pressure fell an average of 22/15 mm Hg, usually accompanied by dizziness. Only minimal changes in blood pressure were observed following a dose of 2 mg.
asthma medicine tramadol market Corticosteroids may activate latent amebiasis. Therefore, it is recommended that latent or active amebiasis be ruled out before initiating corticosteroid therapy in any patient who has spent time in the tropics or in any patient with unexplained diarrhea.
arthritis tramadol arrhythmia If handled properly well-cooked and packaged foods usually are safe. Tap water, ice, unpasteurized milk, and dairy products are associated with increased risk for TD. Safe beverages include bottled carbonated beverages, hot tea or coffee, beer, wine, and water boiled or appropriately treated with iodine or chlorine.
drugs pills tramadol while breastfeeding There is currently no blood test for the diagnosis of smallpox. The variola virus can be seen under electron microscopy in fluid taken from smallpox sores, but this is a hazardous procedure (there is risk of spread of the virus) and therefore not routinely done.
patient relations co uk buy tramadol online Thirty-nine percent (7/18) of the isolates from patients who experienced virologic failure in the abacavir once-daily arm had a >2.5-fold decrease in abacavir susceptibility with a median-fold decrease of 1.3 (range 0.5 to 11) compared with 29% (5/17) of the failure isolates in the twice-daily arm with a median-fold decrease of 0.92 (range 0.7 to 13). Fifty-six percent (10/18) of the virologic failure isolates in the once-daily abacavir group compared to 41% (7/17) of the failure isolates in the twice-daily abacavir group had a >2.5-fold decrease in lamivudine susceptibility with median-fold changes of 81 (range 0.79 to >116) and 1.1 (range 0.68 to >116) in the once-daily and twice-daily abacavir arms, respectively.
fill prescription tramadol and effexor similarities The NCI has booklets and other materials for patients, health professionals, and the public. These publications discuss types of cancer, methods of cancer treatment, coping with cancer, and clinical trials. Some publications provide information on tests for cancer, cancer causes and prevention, cancer statistics, and NCI research activities. NCI materials on these and other topics may be ordered online or printed directly from the NCI Publications Locator. These materials can also be ordered by telephone from the Cancer Information Service toll-free at 1-800-4-CANCER (1-800-422-6237), TTY at 1-800-332-8615.
side effects of tramadol overdose symptoms Different types of treatments are available for patients with transitional cell cancer of the renal pelvis and ureter. Some treatments are standard (the currently used treatment), and some are being tested in clinical trials. Before starting treatment, patients may want to think about taking part in a clinical trial. A treatment clinical trial is a research study meant to help improve current treatments or obtain information on new treatments for patients with cancer. When clinical trials show that a new treatment is better than the standard treatment, the new treatment may become the standard treatment.
treatment for thrush seap debt counseling adipex diet pill Changes in the absorption, distribution, metabolism and excretion of benzodiazepines have been reported in a variety of disease states including alcoholism, impaired hepatic function and impaired renal function. Changes have also been demonstrated in geriatric patients. A mean half-life of alprazolam of 16.3 hours has been observed in healthy elderly subjects (range: 9.0–26.9 hours, n=16) compared to 11.0 hours (range: 6.3–15.8 hours, n=16) in healthy adult subjects. In patients with alcoholic liver disease the half-life of alprazolam ranged between 5.8 and 65.3 hours (mean: 19.7 hours, n=17) as compared to between 6.3 and 26.9 hours (mean=11.4 hours, n=17) in healthy subjects. In an obese group of subjects the half-life of alprazolam ranged between 9.9 and 40.4 hours (mean=21.8 hours, n=12) as compared to between 6.3 and 15.8 hours (mean=10.6 hours, n=12) in healthy subjects.
symptoms for mono phentermine and no rx In the controlled clinical studies of FORTAMET® in patients with type 2 diabetes, a total of 424 patients received FORTAMET® therapy (up to 2500 mg/day) and 430 patients received immediate-release metformin. Adverse reactions reported in ≥5% of the FORTAMET® or immediate-release metformin patients are listed in t6 Table 6]. These pooled results show that the most frequently reported adverse reactions in the FORTAMET® group were infection, diarrhea, and nausea. Similar incidences of these adverse reactions were seen in the immediate-release metformin group.
symptoms for mumps order adipex p online Female hypogonadism — 0.3 mg or 0.625 mg daily, administered cyclically (e.g., three weeks on and one week off). Doses are adjusted depending on the severity of symptoms and responsiveness of the endometrium.In clinical studies of delayed puberty due to female hypogonadism, breast development was induced by doses as low as 0.15 mg. The dosage may be gradually titrated upward at 6-to-12 month intervals as needed to achieve appropriate bone age advancement and eventual epiphyseal closure. Clinical studies suggest that doses of 0.15 mg, 0.3 mg, and 0.6 mg are associated with mean ratios of bone age advancement to chronological age progression (ΔBA/ΔCA) of 1.1, 1.5, and 2.1, respectively. (Premarin in the dose strength of 0.15 mg is not available commercially). Available data suggest that chronic dosing with 0.625 mg is sufficient to induce artificial cyclic menses with sequential progestin treatment and to maintain bone mineral density after skeletal maturity is achieved.Female castration or primary ovarian failure — 1.25 mg daily, cyclically. Adjust dosage, upward or downward, according to severity of symptoms and response of the patient. For maintenance, adjust dosage to lowest level that will provide effective control.
keflex prescribing information tramadol precautions Preclinical studies have shown that lithium alters sodium transport in nerve and muscle cells and effects a shift toward intraneuronal metabolism of catecholamines, but the specific biochemical mechanism of lithium action in mania is unknown.
medical center adipex ganeric Glyburide– In a single-dose interaction study in type 2 diabetes patients, co-administration of metformin and glyburide did not result in any changes in either metformin pharmacokinetics or pharmacodynamics. Decreases in glyburide AUC and Cmax were observed, but were highly variable. The single-dose nature of this study and the lack of correlation between glyburide blood levels and pharmacodynamic effects, makes the clinical significance of this interaction uncertain (see section-12.1.3 DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION: Concomitant FORTAMET® and Oral Sulfonylurea Therapy in Adult Patients]).
alcoholism cialis mg to take Most people with Smith-Magenis syndrome have a broad, square-shaped face with deep-set eyes, full cheeks, and a prominent lower jaw. The middle of the face and the bridge of the nose often appear flattened. The mouth tends to turn downward with a full, outward-curving upper lip. These facial differences can be subtle in early childhood, but they usually become more distinctive in later childhood and adulthood. Dental abnormalities are also common in affected individuals.
rural medicine will tramadol help with opiate withdrawal Carefully consider the potential benefits and risks of etodolac and other treatment options before deciding to use etodolac. Use the lowest effective dose for the shortest duration consistent with individual patient treatment goals (see WARNINGS).
local doctors adipex bontril ionamin meridia phentermine xenical Hormone therapy is a cancer treatment that removes hormones or blocks their action and stops cancer cells from growing. Hormones are substances produced by glands in the body and circulated in the bloodstream. The presence of some hormones can cause certain cancers to grow. If tests show that the cancer cells have places where hormones can attach (receptors), drugs, surgery, or radiation therapy are used to reduce the production of hormones or block them from working.
avapro generic xanax palpitations Treatment: In the event of overdose, induction of vomiting, gastric lavage, establishment of a patent airway, and possibly mechanically assisted respiration are advised. In vitro and animal studies indicate that activated charcoal may significantly decrease the bioavailability of diphenoxylate. In noncomatose patients, a slurry of 100 g of activated charcoal can be administered immediately after the induction of vomiting or gastric lavage.
hair loss treatment symptoms from stopping tramadol In AML, the myeloid stem cells usually develop into a type of immature white blood cell called myeloblasts (or myeloid blasts). The myeloblasts, or leukemia cells, in AML are abnormal and do not become healthy white blood cells. The leukemia cells can build up in the blood and bone marrow so there is less room for healthy white blood cells, red blood cells, and platelets. When this happens, infection, anemia, or easy bleeding may occur. The leukemia cells can spread outside the blood to other parts of the body, including the central nervous system (brain and spinal cord), skin, and gums. Sometimes leukemia cells form a solid tumor called a granulocytic sarcoma or chloroma.
cosmic tones for mental therapy mobic tramadol Estrogens are widely distributed in the body and are generally found in higher concentrations in the sex hormone target organs. Estrogens circulate in the blood largely bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin.
dispensing adipex official website Endoscopic ultrasound-guided fine-needle aspiration biopsy. An endoscope that has an ultrasound probe and a biopsy needle is inserted through the mouth and into the esophagus. The probe bounces sound waves off body tissues to make echoes that form a sonogram (computer picture) of the lymph nodes near the esophagus. The sonogram helps the doctor see where to place the biopsy needle to remove tissue from the lymph nodes. This tissue is checked under a microscope for signs of cancer.
best supplements for cutting buy cash on delivery adipex The pharmacological activity of spironolactone metabolites in man is not known. However, in the adrenalectomized rat the antimineralocorticoid activities of the metabolites C, TMS, and HTMS, relative to spironolactone, were 1.10, 1.28, and 0.32, respectively. Relative to spironolactone, their binding affinities to the aldosterone receptors in rat kidney slices were 0.19, 0.86, and 0.06, respectively.
supplements for multiple sclerosis online us pharmacy with md phentermine For peripheral intravenous infusion, 1 to 1.5 g/kg/day of total amino acids will reduce protein catabolism. Infusion or ingestion of carbohydrate or lipid will not reduce the nitrogen sparing effect of intravenous amino acid infusions at this dose.
art tablet sintomas pastilla adipex The number of people with diabetes is growing. As a result, the number of people with kidney failure caused by diabetes is also growing. Some experts predict that diabetes soon might account for half the cases of kidney failure. In light of the increasing illness and death related to diabetes and kidney failure, patients, researchers, and health care professionals will continue to benefit by addressing the relationship between the two diseases. The NIDDK is a leader in supporting research in this area.
ten commandments tablets phentermine 37.5mg cap amide a167 Renal Insufficiency: It is recommended that the VIDEX (didanosine) dose be modified in patients with reduced creatinine clearance and in patients receiving maintenance hemodialysis (see section-13 DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION]). Data from two studies in adults indicated that the apparent oral clearance of didanosine decreased and the terminal elimination half-life increased as creatinine clearance decreased (see table2 Table 2]). Following oral administration, didanosine was not detectable in peritoneal dialysate fluid (n=6); recovery in hemodialysate (n=5) ranged from 0.6% to 7.4% of the dose over a 3-4 hour dialysis period. The absolute bioavailability of didanosine was not affected in patients requiring dialysis.
adhd medicines where to order xanax As with the management of all overdosage, the possibility of multiple drug ingestion should be considered. The physician may wish to consider contacting a poison control center for up-to-date information on the management of overdosage with methylphenidate.
nuclear medicine cheap tramadol ssales Gemzar is indicated in combination with cisplatin for the first–line treatment of patients with inoperable, locally advanced (Stage IIIA or IIIB), or metastatic (Stage IV) non–small cell lung cancer.
physician order phentermine uk In theory, there is a possibility that the clearance of methylphenidate might be affected by urinary pH, either being increased with acidifying agents or decreased with alkalizing agents. This should be considered when methylphenidate is given in combination with agents that alter urinary pH.
chelation therapy for heart disease phentermine weight loss orange county There have been clinical case reports of retinal thrombosis associated with the use of hormonal contraceptives. ORTHO EVRAВ® should be discontinued if there is unexplained partial or complete loss of vision; onset of proptosis or diplopia; papilledema; or retinal vascular lesions. Appropriate diagnostic and therapeutic measures should be undertaken immediately.
treatment for arthritis 37.5mg phentermine nc Pressor amines may be used to counteract excessive hypotension. Since patients being treated with ganglion blockers are more than normally reactive to pressor amines, small doses of the latter are recommended to avoid excessive response.
star caps diet pills cheaper xanax without prescription In a clinical investigation using FLUDARA FOR INJECTION in combination with pentostatin (deoxycoformycin) for the treatment of refractory chronic lymphocytic leukemia (CLL) in adults, there was an unacceptably high incidence of fatal pulmonary toxicity.Therefore, the use of FLUDARA FOR INJECTION in combination with pentostatin is not recommended.
taking prescriptions next day air ups tramadol ultram Abstention from cigarette smoking and smoking cessation for current smokers are recommended (Table 7) (Class I, Level of Evidence B). Data from cohort and epidemiological studies are consistent and overwhelming. Avoidance of environmental tobacco smoke for stroke prevention should also be considered (Class IIa, Level of Evidence C). The use of counseling, nicotine products, and oral smoking-cessation medications has been found to be effective for smokers and should be considered (Class IIa, Level of Evidence B).
residential treatment centers tramadol in your system Once consensus is reached among local physicians, EMSS, hospitals, and other stakeholders on appropriate transport protocols, the lack of adequate funding can be another barrier to new or existing transport protocols. The local and regional structure of EMSS also can create challenges for the dissemination and adoption of up-to-date transport protocols.
prescribing to family members weight lost with adipex With the variety of treatments available for erectile dysfunction today, most men can achieve a satisfactory outcome. The AUA estimates that PDE5 inhibitors such as sildenafil (Viagra) are effective for 80% of men, penile injection therapy for 85%, penile insertion therapy (through the urethra) for 40%, vacuum device for 75%, and implanted penile prosthesis for 90%.
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pharmacy center what is in tramadol A scout film should be made routinely before administering the contrast medium. Radiograms of the upper half of the extremity are taken while the last few mL are being injected, followed by radiograms of the lower half of the extremity a few seconds later.
einstein school of medicine individual health plan adipex diet pill Quantitative methods that require measurement of zone diameters also provide reproducible estimates of the susceptibility of bacteria to antimicrobial compounds. One such standardized procedure section-14 (2)] requires the use of standardized inoculum concentrations. This procedure uses paper disks impregnated with 30-Ојg cefoxitin to test the susceptibility of microorganisms to cefoxitin.
hoodia pills tramadol for menstrual pain The NINDS is committed to research on the congenital myopathies. Research includes studies on the molecular basis of muscular activity and genetic studies. The goals of these studies are to increase understanding of these disorders and to find ways to treat, prevent, and ultimately cure them.
perscriptions cost of 30 tablets phentermine 37.5 People with AS have social impairment and difficulty understanding others’ point of view. They tend to be socially awkward, eccentric, unaware of conventional social rules, or unempathic. They may make limited eye contact, seem to be unengaged in a conversation, and not understand gestures or nonverbal communication.
best acne treatment adipex by phone no script One common test is for rheumatoid factor, an antibody that is present in the blood of most people with rheumatoid arthritis. (An antibody is a special protein made by the immune system that normally helps fight foreign substances in the body.) Not all people with rheumatoid arthritis test positive for rheumatoid factor, especially early in the disease. Also, some people test positive for rheumatoid factor, yet may never develop the disease. Other common laboratory tests include a white blood cell count, a blood test for anemia, and a test of the erythrocyte sedimentation rate (often called the sed rate), which measures inflammation in the body. C-reactive protein is another common test that measures inflammation. However most reliable test used by rheumatologist to diagnose RA is Anti-CCP (Anti Cyclic Citrulinated Peptide) test. Higher value of Anti-CCP test helps doctor to confirm the disease.
doctors healthcare viagra vs cialis forum The symptoms of type 2 diabetes develop gradually. Their onset is not as sudden as in type 1 diabetes. Symptoms may include fatigue, frequent urination, increased thirst and hunger, weight loss, blurred vision, and slow healing of wounds or sores. Some people have no symptoms.
prescription records omeprazole tramadol Oral administration requires dilution of the 20% solution with diet cola or other diet soft drinks, to a final concentration of 5% (see section-18.5 Dosage Guide and Preparation] table). If administered via gastric tube or Miller-Abbott tube, water may be used as the diluent. The dilutions should be freshly prepared and utilized within one hour. Remaining undiluted solutions in opened vials can be stored in the refrigerator up to 96 hours. MUCOMYST IS NOT APPROVED FOR PARENTERAL INJECTION.
obama drugs cialis no prescription best online pharmacy Category C. In animal reproduction studies with nadolol, evidence of embryo- and fetotoxicity was found in rabbits, but not in rats or hamsters, at doses 5 to 10 times greater (on a mg/kg basis) than the maximum indicated human dose. No teratogenic potential was observed in any of these species.
drug test cheap adipex adipex online adipex p Nursing Mothers– Low levels of opioid analgesics have been detected in human milk. As a general rule, nursing should not be undertaken while a patient is receiving hydromorphone hydrochloride tablets since it, and other drugs in this class, may be excreted in the milk.
pharmacists prescribe how to go thru tramadol withdrawals Preparation of the irrigation solution should be performed with strict aseptic techniques. The prepared solution should be stored at 4В°C, and should be used within 48 hours following preparation to reduce the risk of contamination with resistant microorganisms.
pharmaceutical 4 tramadol hcl In the event of overdose, consider standard measures to remove any unabsorbed drug. Symptomatic and supportive treatment is recommended. Desloratadine and 3-hydroxydesloratadine are not eliminated by hemodialysis.
generic tablets images phentermine 37.5 Information on concurrent usage of atenolol and aspirin is limited. Data from several studies, ie, TIMI-II, ISIS-2, currently do not suggest any clinical interaction between aspirin and beta blockers in the acute myocardial infarction setting.
vicodin prescribing information mixing cialis and viagra The most common adverse experience occurring with RIBASPHEREВ® (Ribavirin capsules) is anemia, which may be severe. (See section-11 ADVERSE REACTIONS].) Patients should be advised that laboratory evaluations are required prior to starting therapy and periodically thereafter. (See section-10.2 Laboratory Tests].) It is advised that patients be well hydrated, especially during the initial stages of treatment.
allegra d generic adipex delivered cod This summary section refers to specific treatments under study in clinical trials, but it may not mention every new treatment being studied. Information about ongoing clinical trials is available from the NCI Web site.
shipping prescriptions phentermine for men Mild to moderate hypoglycemia may be treated by eating foods or drinks that contain sugar. Patients should always carry a quick source of sugar, such as hard candy or glucose tablets. More severe hypoglycemia may require the assistance of another person. Patients who are unable to take sugar orally or who are unconscious require an injection of glucagon or should be treated with intravenous administration of glucose at a medical facility.
complete patient people who take phentermine Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Alcohol and Dextrose Injections USP. It is also not known whether Alcohol and Dextrose Injections USP can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Alcohol and Dextrose Injections USP should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.
medicines side effects pn 1 cialis Varicose veins usually don’t cause serious medical problems. On occasion, they require treatment for pain, skin problems, blood clots, or other complications. People may choose to have cosmetic treatment to improve the appearance of varicose veins.
symptoms for kidney infection lowest cost for veterinarian tramadol Do not take KETEK if you have ever had side effects of the liver while taking KETEK or macrolide antibiotics. Macrolide antibiotics include erythromycin, azithromycin (ZithromaxВ®), clarithromycin (BiaxinВ®) or dirithromycin (DynabacВ®).
symptoms for back pain tramadol benefits Serologic techniques provide an alternative to microscopic detection of microfilariae for the diagnosis of lymphatic filariasis. Because lymphedema may develop many years after infection, lab tests are often negative with these patients.
physical therapy for osteoarthritis injecting xanax pills An oral form should supplant the injectable as soon as practicable. In the absence of bioavailability studies establishing bioequivalence between these two dosage forms the following guidelines for dosage are suggested. For an initial approximation of the total daily dose required, the parenteral dose administered in the preceding 24 hours may be used. Since this dose is only an initial estimate, it is recommended that careful monitoring of clinical signs and symptoms, including clinical efficacy, sedation, and adverse effects, be carried out periodically for the first several days following the initiation of switchover. In this way, dosage adjustments, either upward or downward, can be quickly accomplished. Depending on the patient’s clinical status, the first oral dose should be given within 12 to 24 hours following the last parenteral dose.
carolina sports medicine order generic tramadol A positive test result means that the laboratory found a change in a particular gene, chromosome, or protein of interest. Depending on the purpose of the test, this result may confirm a diagnosis, indicate that a person is a carrier of a particular genetic mutation, identify an increased risk of developing a disease (such as cancer) in the future, or suggest a need for further testing. Because family members have some genetic material in common, a positive test result may also have implications for certain blood relatives of the person undergoing testing. It is important to note that a positive result of a predictive or pre-symptomatic genetic test usually cannot establish the exact risk of developing a disorder. Also, health professionals typically cannot use a positive test result to predict the course or severity of a condition.
medicine treatment tramadol scream online The absorption of NGMN and EE following application of ORTHO EVRAВ® was studied under conditions encountered in a health club (sauna, whirlpool and treadmill) and in a cold water bath. The results indicated that for NGMN there were no significant treatment effects on Css or AUC when compared to normal wear. For EE, increased exposures were observed due to sauna, whirlpool and treadmill. There was no significant effect of cold water on these parameters.
academic medicine phentermine mc Ideally, examinations using radiopharmaceuticals, especially those elective in nature, of a woman of childbearing capability, should be performed during the first few (approximately 10) days following the onset of menses.
oxygen tablets intoxication tramadol Many people with arthritis benefit from physical or occupational therapy. Physical therapy involves an exercise regiment designed to strengthen muscles and improve flexion. Often this therapy also reduces pain while improving the ability to perform daily activities. Occupational therapy targets day-to-day function. Occupational therapists can make devices, such as splints, to support joints during daily activities, or at night. These devices may also reduce pain.
supplements for tendonitis adipex e check payment Food infection is usually diagnosed by specific laboratory tests that identify the causative organism. Bacteria such as Campylobacter, Salmonella, and E. coli O157:H7 are found by culturing stool samples in the laboratory and identifying the bacteria that grow on the agar or other culture medium. Parasites can be identified by examining stools under the microscope. Viruses are more difficult to identify, as they are too small to see under a light microscope and are difficult to culture. Viruses are usually identified by testing stool samples for genetic markers that indicate a specific virus is present.
physical therapy equipment for sale buy tramadol retard Extreme caution should be exercised in the use of sotalol in patients with renal failure undergoing hemodialysis. The half-life of sotalol is prolonged (up to 69 hours) in anuric patients. Sotalol, however, can be partly removed by dialysis with subsequent partial rebound in concentrations when dialysis is completed. Both safety (heart rate, QT interval) and efficacy (arrhythmia control) must be closely monitored.
symptoms for strep throat tell it to my ex adipex In patients undergoing major surgery or during anesthesia with agents that produce hypotension, enalapril may block angiotensin II formation secondary to compensatory renin release. If hypotension occurs and is considered to be due to this mechanism, it can be corrected by volume expansion.
drugs no prescription info on tramadol feeble Many families say that ALPS has brought them closer together. Family members learn that they can rely on each other for support. Children learn from their parents’ open and honest communication, and the experience teaches them how to solve problems.
drugs without a prescription tramadol cod 180 prescription NIAID, in collaboration with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the World Health Organization, has developed standard definitions and methods for surveillance of group A streptococcal diseases.This was accomplished by meetings with experts in the group A streptococcal research community that included research scientists, academic investigators, clinicians, and public health officials.
prescribing service mastercard tramadol One clinical trial was conducted with ATROVENT Nasal Spray 0.06%, administered four times daily for three weeks, in 218 patients with rhinorrhea associated with Seasonal Allergic Rhinitis (SAR), compared to its vehicle in 211 patients. Patients in this trial were adults and adolescents 12 years of age and above. ATROVENT Nasal Spray 0.06% was significantly more effective in reducing the severity and duration of rhinorrhea over the three weeks of the study, as measured by daily patient symptom scores. There was no difference between treatment groups in the effect on nasal congestion, sneezing or itching eyes.
vitamins supplements how dangerous is cialis Radiology studies include x-rays and scans. The most important radiology study in ALS is the magnetic resonance imaging scan (MRI) of the brain and spine. MRI takes very high resolution pictures of the inside of the brain and the spinal cord, which contains high numbers of upper motor neurons. The main use of MRI is to rule out other conditions that can mimic, or appear very similar to, ALS. These include compression of the spinal cord from a slipped disc or fracture of the spine, as well as strokes and multiple sclerosis. Unlike with these other conditions, an MRI scan appears normal in a person with ALS.
drug stores tramadol with ativan The PAH gene provides instructions for making an enzyme called phenylalanine hydroxylase. This enzyme converts the amino acid phenylalanine to L-tyrosine. If gene mutations reduce the activity of phenylalanine hydroxylase, phenylalanine from the diet is not processed effectively. As a result, this amino acid can build up to toxic levels in the blood and other tissue. Because nerve cells in the brain are particularly sensitive to phenylalanine levels, excessive amounts of this substance can cause brain damage.
doctors west tramadol and piroxicam HP infection is positively associated with IDA in both symptomatic and asymptomatic subjects. HP infected peoples are at increased risk for IDA odds ratio (OR) 2.8 (95% confidence interval (CI) 1.9 to 4.2) – Muhsen K and Cohen D 2008]]. Although HP infection should be suspected in the absence of other obvious causes of IDA, it is not already known if eradication of HP infection could result in improvement of both iron stores and IDA.
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ideas for speech therapy is generic cialis good Human histamine skin wheal studies following single and repeated 5 mg doses of desloratadine have shown that the drug exhibits an antihistaminic effect by 1 hour; this activity may persist for as long as 24 hours. There was no evidence of histamine-induced skin wheal tachyphylaxis within the desloratadine 5 mg group over the 28-day treatment period. The clinical relevance of histamine wheal skin testing is unknown.
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foot doctor is tramadol like hydrocodone Impairment of male fertility was observed in reproductive studies performed in rats at a dose of 800 mg/kg/day (4800 mg/m2). Oligospermia and infertility have been described in men treated with sulfasalazine. Withdrawal of the drug appears to reverse these effects.
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diet pills review cialis ed danger Although changes in sexual desire, sexual performance, and sexual satisfaction often occur as manifestations of a psychiatric disorder, they may also be a consequence of pharmacologic treatment. In particular, some evidence suggests that SSRIs can cause such untoward sexual experiences. Reliable estimates of the incidence and severity of untoward experiences involving sexual desire, performance, and satisfaction are difficult to obtain, however, in part because patients and physicians may be reluctant to discuss them. Accordingly, estimates of the incidence of untoward sexual experience and performance, cited in product labeling, are likely to underestimate their actual incidence. In patients enrolled in U.S. major depressive disorder, OCD, and bulimia placebo-controlled clinical trials, decreased libido was the only sexual side effect reported by at least 2% of patients taking fluoxetine (4% fluoxetine, < 1% placebo). There have been spontaneous reports in women taking fluoxetine of orgasmic dysfunction, including anorgasmia.
therapy for hands difference between tramadol and tramadol hcl While you are using estrogens, it is important to visit your doctor at least once a year for a check-up. If you develop vaginal bleeding while taking estrogens, you may need further evaluation. If members of your family have had breast cancer or if you have ever had breast lumps or an abnormal mammogram (breast x-ray), you need to have more frequent breast examinations.
rx pharmacy tramadol tablets dogs Migraine headache characteristics, such as frequency or severity, have not been accounted for in most case-control studies. A Dutch population-based study of migraine patients and matched controls investigated the relationship between silent infarction on MRI and headache characteristics.84] Although there was no overall difference between the 2 groups, migraine patients had a 7-fold increased odds of silent brain infarction localized to the posterior circulation.85] This also correlated positively with attack frequency. Risk factors such as hypertension, smoking, and OC use did not modify the effect of migraine on deep white matter lesions in women.86] Whether this represents a true risk for clinical stroke is uncertain, and there is no evidence that prevention of migraine attacks decreases the risk of silent ischemic damage.
seasonale generic phentermine without prescription and fasted delivery ACE inhibitors can cause fetal and neonatal morbidity and death when administered to pregnant women. Several dozen cases have been reported in the world literature. When pregnancy is detected, benazepril and hydrochlorothiazide should be discontinued as soon as possible and monitoring of the fetal development should be performed on a regular basis.
er doctors cialis sample pamphlet Ultrasound images of the breast are very useful in the evaluation of lumps or suspicious areas seen by a mammogram. An ultrasound exam is painless and can be used for differentiating between benign cysts (blisters of fluid in the breast), benign tumors, normal breast anatomy and the evaluation of malignant tumors (cancer). Ultrasound is also very helpful in guidance for biopsy of abnormal areas of the breast. The use of ultrasound allows assessment and biopsy of a large number of breast lumps in the office without the use of sedatives or general anesthesia. Guidance for needle biopsy of breast tissue is commonly performed with ultrasound in the office setting without a trip to the hospital.
hudson physicians taking adipex while pregnant 1. National Committee for Clinical Laboratory Standards, Methods for Dilution Antimicrobial Susceptibility Tests for Bacteria that Grow Aerobically; Approved Standard-Fifth Edition. NCCLS document M7-A5 (ISBN 1-56238-309-9). NCCLS, Wayne, PA 19087-1898, 2000.
injury no perscription cheap phentermine diet pills Pregnancy: FARESTON may cause fetal harm when administered to pregnant women. Studies in rats at doses ≥1.0 mg/kg/day (about 1/4 the daily maximum recommended human dose on a mg/m2 basis) administered during the period of organogenesis, have shown that toremifene is embryotoxic and fetotoxic, as indicated by intrauterine mortality, increased resorption, reduced fetal weight, and fetal anomalies; including malformation of limbs, incomplete ossification, misshapen bones, ribs/spine anomalies, hydroureter, hydronephrosis, testicular displacement, and subcutaneous edema. Fetal anomalies may have been a consequence of maternal toxicity. Toremifene has been shown to cross the placenta and accumulate in the rodent fetus.
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write prescription perscription drug stores ultram tramadol The largest, most comprehensive diabetes study ever conducted, the DCCT involved 1,441 volunteers with type 1 diabetes and 29 medical centers in the United States and Canada. Volunteers had diabetes for at least 1 year but no longer than 15 years. They also were required to have no, or only early signs of, diabetic eye disease.
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prescription drugs cialis health risks Epidemiologic, case-control studies107-110 were conducted in the U.S. using electronic healthcare claims data to evaluate the risk of venous thromboembolism (VTE) among women aged 15-44 who used ORTHO EVRAВ® compared to women who used oral contraceptives containing 30-35 mcg of ethinyl estradiol (EE) and either norgestimate (NGM) or levonorgestrel (LNG). NGM is the prodrug for norelgestromin, the progestin in ORTHO EVRAВ®. These studies (see Table 5) used slightly different designs and reported odds ratios ranging from 0.9 (indicating no increase in risk) to 2.4 (indicating an approximate doubling of risk). One study (i3 Ingenix) included patient chart review to confirm the VTE occurrence.
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supplements for knees purchase phentermine without rx Usually, iliotibial band syndrome resolves when the person reduces activity and performs stretching exercises followed by muscle-strengthening exercises. In rare cases when the syndrome persists, surgery may be necessary to split the tendon and loosen its positioning over the bone.
symptoms for lung cancer looking for site for phentermines The purpose of this article is to review the literature on childhood stroke and to provide recommendations for optimal diagnosis and treatment. This article is intended for physicians who are responsible for diagnosing and treating infants, children, and adolescents with cerebrovascular disease.
symptoms for bronchitis buy phentermine mastercard Because fluoxetine’s metabolism, like that of a number of other compounds including TCAs and other selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, involves the CYP2D6 system, concomitant therapy with drugs also metabolized by this enzyme system (such as the TCAs) may lead to drug interactions (see Drug Interactions under PRECAUTIONS).
pharmacy business buy tramadol online huge discounts index Knee injuries can range from mild to severe. Some of the less severe, yet still painful and functionally limiting, knee problems are runner’s knee (pain or tenderness close to or under the knee cap at the front or side of the knee), iliotibial band syndrome (pain on the outer side of the knee), and tendonitis, also called tendinosis (marked by degeneration within a tendon, usually where it joins the bone).
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hypertension patients diabetic diet pregnancy adipex pill Gastroenteritis can be highly contagious. Viral gastroenteritis is commonly transmitted by people with unwashed hands. People can get these viruses through close contact with infected individuals by sharing their food, drink, or eating utensils, or by eating food or drinking beverages that are contaminated with the virus. Noroviruses, in particular, are typically spread to other people by contact with stool or vomit of infected people and through contaminated water or food—especially oysters from contaminated waters.
patient financing can i split cialis Chlamydia trachomatis bacteria live in vaginal fluid and in semen. About 70 percent of chlamydial infections have no symptoms, thereby naming it the “silent” disease. Symptoms usually appear within 1 to 3 weeks after the infection occurs. Those who do have symptoms may have an abnormal discharge (mucus or pus) from the vagina or penis or experience pain while urinating. These early symptoms may be very mild.
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supplements for elderly tramadol names Juvenile polyposis/hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia syndrome is a condition that involves both arteriovenous malformations and a tendency to develop growths (polyps) in the gastrointestinal tract. Types 1, 2 and 3 do not appear to increase the likelihood of such polyps.
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wall treatments phentermine overnight no subscription Read this information carefully before you decide if MIRENAВ is right for you. This information does not take the place of talking with your health care provider. If you have any questions about MIRENAВ , ask your health care provider. You should also learn about other birth control methods to choose the one that is best for you.
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speech therapy for stroke tramadol abdominal pain Radiation therapy is a cancer treatment that uses high-energy x-rays or other types of radiation to kill cancer cells or keep them from growing. There are two types of radiation therapy. External radiation therapy uses a machine outside the body to send radiation toward the cancer. Internal radiation therapy uses a radioactive substance sealed in needles, seeds, wires, or catheters that are placed directly into or near the cancer. The way the radiation therapy is given depends on the type and stage of the cancer being treated.
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therapy tramadol and diabetic neuropathy Radiation therapy is a cancer treatment that uses high-energy x-rays or other types of radiation to kill cancer cells. There are two types of radiation therapy. External radiation therapy uses a machine outside the body to send radiation toward the cancer. Internal radiation therapy uses a radioactive substance sealed in needles, seeds, wires, or catheters that are placed directly into or near the cancer. The way the radiation therapy is given depends on the type and stage of the cancer being treated.
other medicine ro39 xanax The primary mechanism of action of glimepiride in lowering blood glucose appears to be dependent on stimulating the release of insulin from functioning pancreatic beta cells. In addition, extrapancreatic effects may also play a role in the activity of sulfonylureas such as glimepiride. This is supported by both preclinical and clinical studies demonstrating that glimepiride administration can lead to increased sensitivity of peripheral tissues to insulin. These findings are consistent with the results of a long-term, randomized, placebo-controlled trial in which glimepiride therapy improved postprandial insulin/C-peptide responses and overall glycemic control without producing clinically meaningful increases in fasting insulin/C-peptide levels. However, as with other sulfonylureas, the mechanism by which glimepiride lowers blood glucose during long-term administration has not been clearly established.
rosalind franklin university of medicine adipex potasium In the United States, Ascaris infections are generally treated for 1-3 days with medication prescribed by your health care provider. The drugs are effective and appear to have few side effects. A health care provider will likely request additional stool exams 1 to 2 weeks after therapy; if the infection is still present, treatment will be repeated.
prescription drug prices tramadol ultram and acute pain Quantitative methods that require measurement of zone diameters also provide reproducible estimates of the susceptibility of bacteria to antimicrobial compounds. One such standardized procedure2 requires the use of standardized inoculum concentrations. This procedure uses paper disks impregnated with 15-Вµg erythromycin to test the susceptibility of microorganisms to erythromycin.
natural supplements for memory cheap adipex online consultant The signs of bleeding in the digestive tract depend upon the site and severity of bleeding. If blood is coming from the rectum or the lower colon, bright red blood will coat or mix with the stool. The stool may be mixed with darker blood if the bleeding is higher up in the colon or at the far end of the small intestine. When there is bleeding in the esophagus, stomach, or duodenum, the stool is usually black or tarry. Vomited material may be bright red or have a coffee-grounds appearance when one is bleeding from those sites. If bleeding is occult, the patient might not notice any changes in stool color.
pharmacy training adipex 75 A diagnosis of Addison disease is made by laboratory tests. The aim of these tests is first to determine whether levels of cortisol are insufficient and then to establish the cause. X-ray exams of the adrenal and pituitary glands also are useful in helping to establish the cause.
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prescribed can steroids be mixed with tramadol Forms of hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia include type 1, type 2, type 3, and juvenile polyposis/hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia syndrome. People with type 1 tend to develop symptoms earlier than those with type 2, and are more likely to have blood vessel malformations in the lungs and brain. Type 2 and type 3 may be associated with a higher risk of liver involvement. Women are more likely than men to develop blood vessel malformations in the lungs with type 1, and are also at higher risk of liver involvement with both type 1 and type 2. Individuals with any form of hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia, however, can have any of these problems.
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ct center for massage therapy tramadol dosage in humans The management of NMS should include 1) immediate discontinuation of metoclopramide and other drugs not essential to concurrent therapy, 2) intensive symptomatic treatment and medical monitoring, and 3) treatment of any concomitant serious medical problems for which specific treatments are available. Bromocriptine and dantrolene sodium have been used in treatment of NMS, but their effectiveness have not been established (see ADVERSE REACTIONS).
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symptoms occur order tramadol cash on delivery Resistance to INH (Isoniazid) and other drugs used for tuberculosis treatment are seen with increased frequency in the United States, some European countries, Southeast Asia and Latin America.] Mutidrug resistance is seen more commonly in AIDS, usually to both INH and Rifampin.
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primary care physician adipex prescription online The flexible plastic container is fabricated from a specially formulated polyvinylchloride. Water can permeate from inside the container into the overwrap but not in amounts sufficient to affect the solution significantly. Solutions in contact with the plastic container may leach out certain chemical components from the plastic in very small amounts; however, biological testing was supportive of the safety of the plastic container materials. Exposure to temperatures above 25В°C/77В°F during transport and storage will lead to minor losses in the moisture content. Higher temperatures lead to greater losses. It is unlikely that these minor losses will lead to clinically significant changes within the expiration period.
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treatment health tramadol overdose resumption Stress echocardiography is a transthoracic echocardiogram combined with either an exercise or chemical stress test. For an exercise stress test, the patient walks or runs on a treadmill or pedals a stationary bicycle to make his heart beat fast and pump hard. For a chemical stress test, the patient is given medicine to make the heart beat fast and pump hard.
patients choice tramadol with nsaids Patients should be told that the anti-anginal efficacy of isosorbide dinitrate is strongly related to its dosing regimen, so the prescribed schedule of dosing should be followed carefully. In particular, daily headaches sometimes accompany treatment with isosorbide dinitrate. In patients who get these headaches, the headaches are a marker of the activity of the drug. Patients should resist the temptation to avoid headaches by altering the schedule of their treatment with isosorbide dinitrate, since loss of headache may be associated with simultaneous loss of anti-anginal efficacy. Aspirin and/or acetaminophen, on the other hand, often successfully relieve isosorbide dinitrate-induced headaches with no deleterious effect on isosorbide dinitrate’s anti-anginal efficacy.
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healing phentermine w o dr prescription No significant accumulation of TENORMIN occurs until creatinine clearance falls below 35В mL/min/1.73m2. Accumulation of atenolol and prolongation of its half-life were studied in subjects with creatinine clearance between 5 and 105 mL/min. Peak plasma levels were significantly increased in subjects with creatinine clearances below 30В mL/min.
longs drugs tramadol next day air ups There may be times when you may not menstruate regularly after you have completed taking a cycle of pills. If you have taken your pills regularly and miss one menstrual period, continue taking your pills for the next cycle but be sure to inform your healthcare provider. If you have not taken the pills daily as instructed and missed a menstrual period, or if you missed two consecutive menstrual periods, you may be pregnant. Check with your healthcare provider immediately to determine whether you are pregnant. Stop taking oral contraceptives if pregnancy is confirmed.В There is no conclusive evidence that oral contraceptive use is associated with an increase in birth defects when taken inadvertently during early pregnancy. Previously, a few studies had reported that oral contraceptives might be associated with birth defects, but these studies have not been confirmed. Nevertheless, oral contraceptives should not be used during pregnancy. You should check with your doctor about risks to your unborn child of any medication taken during pregnancy.
symptoms for colon cancer xanax and keppra Diarrhea led to discontinuation of study medication in 6% of patients treated with immediate-release metformin. Additionally, the following adverse reactions were reported in ≥1.0 – ≤5.0% of immediate-release metformin patients and were more commonly reported with immediate-release metformin than placebo: abnormal stools, hypoglycemia, myalgia, lightheaded, dyspnea, nail disorder, rash, sweating increased, taste disorder, chest discomfort, chills, flu syndrome, flushing, palpitation.
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clinic phentermine purchase without a prescription Correction July 1999 ITC Part I Guided Imagery: Jeanne Achterberg is a past President of the Association for Transpersonal Psychotherapy. She is now with Saybrook Institute and is on sabbatical from Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine.
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nurse practitioners prescribing contraindications taking zoloft and adipex 1. The vial and the insulin should be inspected. The insulin should be clear and colorless. The tamper-resistant cap should be in place to be removed by you. If the cap had been removed before your first use of the vial, or if the insulin is cloudy or colored, you should return the vial to the pharmacy. Do not use it.
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pancreatitis treatment buy tramadol discount Associated symptoms must be searched out, such as nausea, fever, diarrhea, changes in stool consistency and color, urinary symptoms and any skin manifestations. The combination of bloody diarrhea with mucus, fever and intermittent abdominal cramps would suggest a form of dysentery; if there were no fever but the person were older (say, over 50), this might be diverticulitis or ischemic colitis. The more symptoms that are present, the easier it is, in general, to pinpoint the cause.
doctors adipex p online consultation The effectiveness of clozapine in a treatment-resistant schizophrenic population was demonstrated in a 6-week study comparing clozapine and chlorpromazine. Patients meeting DSM-III criteria for schizophrenia and having a mean Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale (BPRS) total score of 61 were demonstrated to be treatment-resistant by history and by open, prospective treatment with haloperidol before entering into the double-blind phase of the study. The superiority of clozapine to chlorpromazine was documented in statistical analyses employing both categorical and continuous measures of treatment effect.
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dosing chewing tramadol Parents should be alert for possible signs of asthma in children, such as coughing at night, frequent colds, wheezing, or other signs of breathing problems. If a parent suspects that their child has asthma, or that their child’s asthma is not well-controlled, they should take the child to a doctor for an exam and testing. If a child has asthma, the parent will need to go to the doctor for regular follow-up visits and to make sure that the child uses the medicines properly.
how long does it take for food poisoning symptoms mexico phentermine no doctor The inhibitory effects of ranolazine on CYP2D6 have been evaluated in extensive metabolizers of dextromethorphan. The study showed that ranolazine and/or metabolites partially inhibit CYP2D6. Concomitant use of Ranexa with other drugs metabolized by CYP2D6, such as tricyclic antidepressants and antipsychotics, has not been formally studied, but lower doses of the other drug than usually prescribed may be required in the presence of ranolazine (see PRECAUTIONS and DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION).
jefferson pharmacy tramadol hydrochloride recreational Borderline elevations of one or more liver tests may occur in up to 15% of patients taking NSAIDs including ibuprofen as found in oxycodone hydrochloride and ibuprofen tablets. These laboratory abnormalities may progress, may remain unchanged, or may be transient with continuing therapy. Notable elevations of ALT or AST (approximately three or more times the upper limit of normal) have been reported in approximately 1% of patients in clinical trials with NSAIDs. In addition, rare cases of severe hepatic reactions, including jaundice and fatal fulminant hepatitis, liver necrosis and hepatic failure, some of them with fatal outcomes have been reported.
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addiction treatments taking phentermine and not losing weight Only 1 symptom is required if the delusions are bizarre or if auditory hallucinations occur in which the voices comment in an ongoing manner on the person’s behavior, or if 2 or more voices are talking with each other. The patient must experience at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) during a 6-month period, and social or occupational deterioration problems occur over a significant amount of time. These problems must not be caused by another condition for the diagnosis of schizophrenia to be made.
treatment for uti adipex stops working Class effect: Symptoms of dystonia, prolonged abnormal contractions of muscle groups, may occur in susceptible individuals during the first few days of treatment. Dystonic symptoms include: spasm of the neck muscles, sometimes progressing to tightness of the throat, swallowing difficulty, difficulty breathing, and/or protrusion of the tongue. While these symptoms can occur at low doses, they occur more frequently and with greater severity with high potency and at higher doses of first generation antipsychotic drugs. An elevated risk of acute dystonia is observed in males and younger age groups.
art tablet c o d phentermine saturday Methylphenidate HCl USP is a white, odorless crystalline powder. Its solutions are acid to litmus. It is freely soluble in water and in methanol, soluble in alcohol, and slightly soluble in chloroform and in acetone. Its molecular weight is 269.77.
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doctor’s cheapest adipex pharmacy online Precipitation of acyclovir crystals in renal tubules can occur if the maximum solubility of free acyclovir (2.5 mg/mL at 37В° C in water) is exceeded or if the drug is administered by bolus injection. Ensuing renal tubular damage can produce acute renal failure.
family patient adipex overnight pharmacy without prescription Throughout this labeling, epidemiological studies reported are of two types: retrospective or case control studies and prospective or cohort studies. Case control studies provide a measure of the relative risk of disease, namely, a ratio of the incidence of a disease among oral-contraceptive users to that among nonusers. The relative risk does not provide information on the actual clinical occurrence of a disease. Cohort studies provide a measure of attributable risk, which is the difference in the incidence of disease between oral-contraceptive users and nonusers. The attributable risk does provide information about the actual occurrence of a disease in the population. For further information, the reader is referred to a text on epidemiological methods.
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